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Tantric Yoga/Sex Magick

From: (nagasiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,talk.religion.newage,talk.religion.misc,alt.consciousness.mysticism,,alt.individualism,alt.self-esteem,alt.drugs.psychedelic,rec.drugs.psychedelic,,alt.magick.moderated
Subject: Tantric Yoga/Sex Magick (was Re: more techniques of sex magick....)
Followup-To: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,talk.religion.newage,talk.religion.misc,alt.consciousness.mysticism,,alt.individualism,alt.self-esteem,alt.drugs.psychedelic,rec.drugs.psychedelic,
Date: 9 Jul 1996 01:31:33 -0700
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49960708 AA1

aum krim namah kali (my Mystress):
|Sex magick -- physically its just good sex.  

by 'good' we may presume you mean pleasurable.  if this is all there
is to it, then I'm not sure why it ought be considered 'magick', though
I agree with what you say here.

|The next thing to work on is your mental/psychological state.  
|...familiarizing yourself with some basic techniques used in
|yoga, specifically raja yoga and bhakti yoga, and hatha yoga.

those sound like Indian words (Sanskrit).  do we have to go to an
Indian teacher to learn these things?  there are a number of 
Hermetics who presume to teach them and I'm not sure that they
all have connections to ancient lineages.

|Raja yoga has to do with training the mind, bhakti with training
|the emotions and hatha with training the body.  

I think these are popular Western perceptions, yes.  rather simplistic.
Patanjali, Vivekananda or others see 'raja' ('royal' or 'kingly')
yoga in some sense as a means of uniting with the divinity through a 
combination of yogic methods.  perhaps the modern magical equivalent 
is Crowley's _Magick_ (/_Liber ABBA_/_Book Four_/whatever), 
Part I: Mysticism.  

bhakti yoga is often a path all its own, including dedication to a 
divinity, various specific honorary and devotional practices, etc.,
though of course not entirely separate from the other yogic disciplines.
Crowley wrote of this within _Liber Astarte vel Berylli_, within appendix 
VII (AA things) of the work previously mentioned.
hatha yoga includes various asanas with breathing disciplines called 
'pranayama' ('prana' being the energy or power generated through use of 
the breath sometimes compared with the Chinese 'chi' or the Western
'spiritus' -- also at times associated with what is called 'kundalini'
within tantric texts).  

the same appendix has recommendations for the practice of all these and 
more within _Liber E vel Exercitiorum_, especially parts III, IV and VI.  
you can supplement these with the reading list found in part VII of the 
same work (which contains both Vivekenananda's and Patanjali's texts, 
real classics, as well as other important supplementaries.

the way you are using these terms you might substitute 'mind/body/heart' 
(raja/hatha/bhakti) and be more clear, else cite greater detail on the

|Combine these with the myths and symbols of your choice and -- 
|you're doing it -- sex magick.  

rather vague, since we don't know what you mean yet by 'training'.
Crowley focussed alot on yoga as preparatory to magical work.  some
say these are mind-calming disciplines.  it appears to have been 
important to Hermetics to identify with Indian mystics, sounding like
adepts who had dedicated a great deal of time to the discipline, yet
I've never heard Crowley's text reviewed by a yogi or attempted to
contrast his own works with those and others he cites as references.

it would be quite easy to read about it and regurgitate, never having
done a bit of the work and I have no idea whether any of these
Hermetic mages actually attain to the states specified within the
texts by the Indian gurus before moving on to something else.  comments
on this aspect of an analysis of magick and its history welcome.

|(Raja yoga is great.  I even submit batch jobs on tough programming 
|problems to my subconcious overnight, using Raja, and often in the 
|morning I have an answer.)

reminds me of what I call my 'Slumbering Eye' and what the Abyss was
talking to me about Einstein and how he'd attempt to achieve a 'beta
state' while by holding two objects aloft, one in each hand,
until he dropped them, all the while focussing on some scientific
conundrum.  usually I find that great ideas will come to me when I'm
just waking up.  I gather that this is true for others and that this
'twilight' consciousness, reverie, is very important to revelation
within the religious and scientific fields.

|...The main thing to practice with raja yoga is meditation and 

given what you say about these below I'd ask how you 'submit' items
'to your subconscious'.  do you just think about the problem before
your slumber, or do you do something else?  like lucid dreaming that
you are focussing (meditating) or observing (contemplating) the item?

|Meditation is the more active form.

the level of activity may depend upon the mind of the individual 
undertaking the focus.  'meditation' in the sense you describe it, 
as a single-pointed focus (which I agree is common) seems alot less 
active in terms of where the mind may go, whereas observation and
letting the thoughts wander seems more active but less difficult, 
intense an endeavor.

|Take a situation in your life, find an apt symbol for it, then
|meditate on the two combined -- probing for new insights and information.

the trick for the beginner is how to go about finding an 'apt' symbol
for any particular problem.  suggestions?  sometimes I've sat and
contemplated the problem of which you are speaking and drawn *out*
symbols, at times (because of my geometered mind) coming up with a
circle with some sort of symmetrical pattern, at others (because I
am adventurous) coming up with some seriously scary-looking kaosmass.

|Do not let your mind wander off.  Then practice holding the symbol
|in your mind for 10 minutes.  Do not let go.  Imagine it in every

I've found this of value with what Jung and others have called
'mandalas' which I've often constructed from religious symbols
and reference to classical designs.  

the attendant 'problem' which you mention was for me unnecessary in
order to obtain benefit in this, I found.  such focus builds attention.  
one may watch the breath to similar effect, and perhaps with less 
distraction (Zen folks often count to 4 or so on outbreaths and then 
begin again).

|Contemplation is a bit easier.  Get a beer or cup of tea
|or cigarette or whatever relaxes you and go into your backyard (or
|natural spot of your choice) and focus on something you find
|pleasant.  A garden is a good choice for me.  Then just gaze at it
|and "feel" it.  Do not impose anything on this, just let it be and
|enjoy.  If you can remember that being a mage is a 24 hour per day
|job then you are well on your way. :)  

that's one way of doing it.  I remember that what I've heard called
'Christian contemplation' involved picking a particular theme and
then starting from it and following thought-trails out from it until
I lost their connection or they felt at low ebb of significance, then
returning to the theme and starting the process again, the objective
not so much the focus upon an individual item as the following of the
trail, watching the thoughts *and feelings* ABOUT something.

I'd call this a kind of *associative* rather than *restrictive*
mental discipline, the two being different kinds of focus and intent.

|Bhakti yoga is....  ...devotional.  ...  I can do better with this 
|type of yoga if I get the right image.  

yes, it is a predominantly *emotional*, heart-based discipline, 
as we've both mentioned.  the Krisna devotees and other Vaisnavites
are very good at fervent, all-out heart-exploding, yet too often
I find they become fixated upon their accepted mental restrictions 
as a crutch and begin to proselytize as part of their fervor,
rather like devotional Christians.

|So far the one I like best is an aspect of the male force.  My favorite 
|right now is to use the "blasted tower" while lovingly whoreshipping 
|the male "tower" with my tongue and lips until it explodes, then 
|tenderly licking up the lava.  

I see here that you are describing a method of fellatio, but I don't
understand how this is at all heart-based.  could you explain in
greater detail?  is it that you are connected, emotionally, to the
man for whom you are performing this oral service?  the mythic
imagery is neat, but tends to obscure your intended communication.

I thought your previous posting (though drawn out and overly 
emphasized as to its esoteric quality) was more bhaktic than this.
you mentioned the value of doing things slow, of treating the whole
body, and I would add to this the value of also attending to all the
bodily senses, treating our lover (male, female, to the heart it
does not matter) to a total, immersive experience.  when there is
a one-way energy going on, rather than the mutual pleasuring and
beautiful fuck you described earlier, it can become a work of bhaktic 
frenzy (we in effect 'get off' on the pleasure of another).

|I also have some success, in more lofty ways, with variants of 
|female goddess like St.Theresa of the Roses and her correspondence 
|-- Ashtereth (similar to the white and black Kali), and the virgin 
|mary.  But my best results with this form of devotional yoga is to 
|buzz past the lofty stuff and dive straight for the gutter....

your 'tantra-ease' (which I loathe unless done for the purpose of
combining esoteric wisdom with sexual technique) is getting in the
way of my understanding you.  when you say 'lofty' here, do you
mean that you imagine it while you masturbate, that you get into
devotional states while you contemplate these goddesses, or that
you engage cunnilingus with your friends?   you wanted to talk
about this stuff, so now I'd like you to be more explicit.

|Hatha yoga has to do with controlling the body.  

this is a common idea, though I'm not so sure it is that simple.
I've done a bit of asana (holding postures, breathing through
various animal and plant poses, sun- and moon-salutations,
etc. in classes) and I notice it is less a *control* and more a
relaxation through stretch and release, merging the conscious
and unconscious minds in a similar way to that of a good massage
(sometimes massage is easier than stretching due to our ability
to unify our attention to the experience rather than concentrate
on coordination and balance while attending to breath).

why any of the foregoing you consider to be related to 'sex magick', 
even in combination and except as preparation, is beyond me.  
typically I hear the latter connected with 'tantric yoga', which 
does sometimes incorporate aspects of all the others in moderation
and occasionally involves actual (rather than merely symbolic) 
sexual interaction.

| take on this in regard to sex magick is for the male to 
|learn to keep it up as long as possible while enjoying as much 
|pleasure as possible, 

I think in Western sexophobic terms this is referred to as 'male
continence' or 'ejacula reservatus' (that last one ain't right).
it may well be the same (I don't have access to my files right
now) as what is called 'karezza' by Dr. Alice Bunker Stockham,
who appears to have studied with the Nayars (polygynous peoples).

what is unfortunate about most sex-magick and tantric works is
that this is as far as most ever get into the subject, as if by
some wishful thinking the male is to produce the desired 'upkeep'.

the advantages of the previous disciplines mentioned (particularly
those of yoga asanas and pranayama, but also any sort of focussing
activity which allows an individual to calm over-excitation) will
become clear when combined with attempts to self-regulate stages
of sexual excitation, and particularly in combination with various
tantric rites that involve consumption of energizing psychoactives
as described within popular vamamarg rites.

as I haven't spoken with many about this and have never seen any
texts which I knew to be scientific descriptions of stages and
methods of excitatory control, it becomes difficult to know if
one's patterns and tactics can be used to effect among a number
of individuals (e.g. if there are practical commonalities of
methods for inhibiting ejactulation in the case of a male).

this is where the information in sex magick/tantra really is 
lacking, and I attribute it largely to a puritanical and
secretive society that it is so inhibited/blinded.

I notice that a number of people presume that there is a difference 
between men and women, as my Mystress does here, and yet as I have
experimented with my own sexuality and with my lovers and watched
our responses I become less and less convinced that this is the
case.  it may well depend in part on the individuals in question 
as well as the technique employed by the tantric partner.

|and for the female to orgasm as much as possible.  

this varies.  I've enjoyed both roles (one who orgasms alot
and one who abstains until immersion).  it would seem to make a 
difference what you are after.  some women find that holding off 
as long as possible makes for a better immersive effect, while for 
some men repeated ejaculations are not as dangerous in the 
obtaining of their goal as the *intensity* of the ecstatic peak.
this may be true for many women as well.

|Most of this is mental. 

while I'd agree that the mental (raja) is very important, I don't
think it fair to place all the emphasis here.  I'd say that if we
can't in some measure employ the discipline of the meditative
focus to the body and breath, intuitively regulating these (solo
or with partner(s)) utilizing the pranayamic disciplines, then we
may not reach the states of consciousness spoken of by mystical
and magical texts.

|But avoid over-stimulation, that is the big (physical) problem 
|IMO for both genders.  The female nerves shut down with 
|overstimulation and the male loses it....

I've found at times it is important to repeatedly reach over-
stimulation and back off multiple times until there is suddenly
no resistance, no shut-down, and this is likely one of the ways
which what Robert Moffett calls 'ego-dissolution' may be engaged 
-- what I'd suggest is a key experience in the tantric 
deprogramming of social taboos.

|OK, I just gave 3 brief examples.  You should experiment and find
|whatever works best for you where Raja and Bhakti yoga are concerned.
|Most people will have the same goal where Hatha yoga is concerned.

I suggest that all of them, emphasized, are important to the total
blowout of what I'd call 'sex magick', since as it is normally
described within the tantric texts I've seen it requires a full-flow 
of the sakti energy (kundalini) through the body, expanding the heart 
to overflowing, suffusing the mind in an ecstatic submersion and 
relaxing the body into a free-floating state of repose.

|You need the Raja yoga to keep your concentration, the bhakti to
|feel the emotional energy and the hatha to keep your genitals
|working right.  

essentially what I stated above, though as I said, most of the time
the means of coordinating these are seldom described in any depth, 
and the dynamics which I'm sure may be gleaned through reflective 
comparison don't appear to be present in public forums beyond 
oblique references in esoteric (dense) mystical texts and the 
occasional crude (and usually ambiguous and poorly-used) 
usage of terms like 'karezza'.  if they are, then they are keyed
within metaphorical works of poetry or alchemical texts rather
than spoken of in any clear way (e.g. _The Secret of the Golden

|Now you need to decide on a myth and/or symbol that excites you.  

really?  I'd heard of this as part of the bhakti devotion, but not
separated out in such a distinct way.  fascinating.

|...get as big a result as possible so that you know this all works.  
|...easiest to start with animal energy/symbols. ...

here's the shape-changing spellcasting that Mike was looking for
which nobody mentioned.  I wonder if this isn't a means of distracting
the conscious mind by providing it an alien experience which will
entertain in much the way psychoactives disrupt it within the 
vamamarg (popularly known as the '5 Ms'/makaras).

|...Working with symbols like this helps to unlock doors in the mind 
|and it works in ways I cannot really describe.  You have to do it.  

I'm unsure that it unlocks any more than other methods whereby the
same inhibitory centers and conscious censors are bypassed or
disrupted.  I think it can and has been described by psychologists
of consciousness (Ornstein's _The Nature of Human Consciousness_
has a few nice essays if I'm not mistaken), though they may not 
actually touch on this particular process so much as how habit
patterns and mystical states of consciousness can release parts of
the shadow (our repressions) so as to become available to us, a
truly re-integrative experience if done correctly.

|......give some consideration to who you choose as a partner.  
|If you're solo, use a vibrator -- one with attachments, not
|penis shape -- if you are female, 

I've now seen your mention of avoidance of phallic shapes twice 
and I'd like to know your basis for it.  are you aware that Hite
and others have demonstrated fairly extensive differences among
women as to their sexual response?  some may not find the 
necessary excitatory buildup through solely clitoral stimulation, 
for example.

in any case I agree that selection of a partner can be important, 
since if they do not have the sensitivity or skill necessary to engage
the rite it can prove over-challenging or prohibitive.  lack of
understanding of what is desired, experience with their bodies,
etc., can prove quite distracting and lead to a disconnection
which detracts from mutual immersion if such is the desired end.

|and whatever men use  (hands?)  

there are vibrators and toys that work just as well for men too,
you just have to become familiar with the various sex (often
"marital", yeah) aids/toys.  the genitalia, from what I can tell,
are basically innee-outee stimulatory centors which have rough if
not direct parallels should one study the physiology.  a rudimentary
study of fetal genital development and the basics of "sexual 
reassignment surgery" can help here, as can fantasizing about the
alternative gender (if a man, separate from bodily experience 
sufficiently while masturbating to imagine being penetrated by your
god; if a woman, attain to the complement, being straddled by your 

|Most people find it more sexually exciting to have a partner.  

that is my experience to date, yes, but it depends alot on my state
of consciousness at the time.

|One that is into tantra and sex magick is, obviously, best.  But you 
|can do an amazing amount with one that has not a clue....  

now you're starting to sound like all those tantric men who 'used'
unknowing vessels for their "delivery". ;>

|Once you get a few effects going you may want to make a "plan"
|now and then.  For example, assess your strengths and weaknesses
|and then work with energies that address your weaknesses so as
|to balance yourself out.  Or you may want to try something that
|strikes you as "yucky," like tasting sexual secretions or
|whatever.  This sort of thing helps to break down mental barriers
|(which may mean it involves another type of yoga, but I'm
|not getting into that -- go read a book on all the different types
|of yoga you can work with).  

I don't think there really is a 'different type of yoga' in the
sense you seem to be suggesting.  all of them generally lead to 
a disassemblage of inhibitory structures concretized by social
enslavement mechanisms (moral authorities like governments
parents, religions, etc.).

|Finally, you can use all the skills you've developed and focus 
|them to tweak things magickally.  

this is very vague and I don't really see that you do it justice
in your description below.  I'd mention as supplement that it is
generally presumed that the submersion of the ego-consciousness
makes possible the "communication of desire" to unconscious
realms, including that which we normally consider to be 'outside
us' and 'connected to external structures'.  in this way mages
intentionally send pre-formatted instructions/requests/formulae
through the designated medium Jung called 'the collective
unconscious'.  at times these instructions concern material or
spiritual conditions (supposedly influencing opportunities, 
character qualities, etc.).

|Be sure that what you want conforms to laws of physics, biology, 

I'd like it if you amplified this a bit.  are you intending to
mean things like 'no square triangles' and the like?  or that 
our 'tweaking' can't extend into the unconscious realm?

|Where people are concerned it is easiest to tweak them on their 
|weaknesses.  (This is another good reason to balance out your 
|own weaknesses.  And when dealing with other mages, be aware that 
|they will go for your weaknesses when trying to tweak you.  

I don't understand the focus on this at all.  I can see focussing
on *my* weaknesses with the intent to provide strength and growth,
and I can see attempting to assist another through reinforcing
areas of needed buttress, but the 'tweaking' of which you speak
otherwise strikes me as more hazardous than anything else, like
putting a lizard in charge of a high-powered weapon inside our brains.

one of the reasons that I haven't bothered attempting to consciously
control much of what you describe, or involve many others in my own 
process of growth in this way, is the way I've come to see the 
dissolutory effects within sex magick/tantra and psychedelic rite.  
as Moffett quotes psychoanalyst Edrita Fried regarding the post-
orgasmic condition:

		When the temporary eclipse is over, the 
		ego assembles its defenses and functions
		again, turning once more to the uses of
		of its resources.  However, perceptions
		are more accurate, thought processes
		more flexible and old judgments have 
		given way to fresh evaluations.  The ego
		is more resilient, more accurate, and
		more active than before.

as Moffett continues,

	Bear in mind, Dr. Fried was writing about the very transitory
	ego-dissolution incidental in sexual intercourse as it is 
	known in our culture.  The tantric techniques are designed
	to heighten and protract this, substantially modifying the
	after-effects as well.

	_Tantric Sex_, by Robert K. Moffett, p. 102.

I proceeded, within my own rites (mostly solitary but sometimes
with lovers who may or may not have known *consciously* what was
going on -- hell, I didn't always know, trusting to my deep mind),
along strictly intuitive reassemblages, occasionally integrating
intentional materials I knew would be important to me long-term,
but almost always because it 'felt right' rather than that I was
attempting to get some material toy through the unconscious mind
or rework my psyche along some conscious design (for some reason
I always saw those as 'dangers' or 'tangents', perhaps due to my
typical default Buddhist values, I have no idea).

|This awareness alone can help you resist their effect and take 
|charge of yourself.)

it is my experience (as you say, YMMV!) that this 'taking charge of
ourselves' is illusory as long as it involves a greater domination
by the ego, though it can become what is popularly called a 'self-
empowerment', integrating long-lost psychic contents.  I've sometimes
suspected that a focus on ego-control and diminuation of uncontrolled
psychic content represents a self-imposed degenerative occlusion of
the conscious upon the unconscious, and that some mystics who attempt
it wind up becoming tyrants or megalomaniacs until they can release
the process to the format of natural inner rhythms (which is what
happens when we just let it run its course in an unrestricted, 
dedicatory ritual of the type you've generally been describing).

|I like to follow some of the techniques in Frater U.D.'s sigil
|magick and focus my concentration on the sigil I make, particu-
|larly during orgasm.

the most I've done with things like this have been a distinct and
lasting focus upon iconography and other symbols of Kali, and at
times this has proven quite intense.  I suspect it provides me
with a stronger bond between us, but cannot be sure.

|Please report back here with your results.  ...just your general
|successes and difficulties.  

I'd also welcome very detailed explanations of the physical 
dynamics of orgasmic inhibitory techniques, since this is usually
what is missing from the posts and texts I've seen and I've had
to run on my own by trial and error (not all that hard, but it
would be kind of nice to compare notes -- I've not been engaging
this kind of rite for some time and so wouldn't wish to attempt 
a start within this particular posting).

|I hope that anyone who finds this useful will post a  comment 
|about APPLIED sex magick.

I suppose this means applied to some particular end beyond that
which naturally proceeds from the experience (something which
I think is valuable all by itself, especially as it does not
merely reinforce useless habit-patterns and attachment).

as I said, my own involvement doesn't usually include this, and
so I have typically refrained from saying I was involved in any
sort of 'sex magick' even though I've been fascinated with the
yogas you mentioned and what I come to know as an ecstatic science
(in the practice of ego-dissolution through sexual immersion and 
intuitive psychoactive ritual).

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