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Loveless Tantra?

From: (nagasiva yronwode)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.sexuality,,alt.magick.tantra
Subject: Loveless Tantra? (was The Ens Seminis)
Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),
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References: <7igA4.9436$_P5.1482124@news2.mia> <>
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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:03:17 GMT
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Xref: alt.magick.tyagi:22126 alt.religion.sexuality:40976 alt.magick.tantra:14765

50000318 IVom

>>We want to walk throuhg the Path of Initiation? Well, that is why exist the
>>sacrament of marriage. Man and woman, united sexually, form a Divine
>>Androgenous Being, a male-female Elohim. The two halves, separated since the
>>dawn of life, are united for one instant to create, to recreate themselves,
>>to regenerate themselves. This practice must be done in marriage (man-woman) 
>>and there is NO need of guru or anything like that. 

sexofundamentalism. your restrictions are your own. (Sienna555):
>Ok so what is to be done with a loveless marraige where the partners are
>together because of societal pressure more than love?  

"done with" is the operative phrase. who is doing with it? if the partners
wish to engage tantra, then the first obstacle will be their antipathy and 
the obvious artificial nature of their relationship. unfortunate though it 
may be, they deserve the type of relationships that they choose. I would
encourage them to change or replace them if they are unhappy with them.

>Is this or is this not contrary to the needs for Maithuna?  
>Or is Maithuna the prescribed cure for an unhappy union?

there are some for whom this context of tantric sexual union would be
PERFECT. that is, if there ever was lustful attraction between the two
people, it has apparently vanished or evaporated. the state of being
married implies that they may have acclimitized themselves to one
another and therefore have worked out at least some of the practical
details of coordination (though some of the rudiments may need to be

perhaps indeed you have the cart before the horse? why should the
happiness come before the practice? why not work with what one has
and then let the happiness come as an INDICATOR that what they are
doing is correct? 

the subject of "maithuna" is a sensitive one in tantric cultures on
account of its typical translation as 'ritual intercourse', and yet
there are symbols and 'lesser manifestations' of this element of
the Five M Tantric Rite that have nothing to do with sexuality per
se (being more symbolic or sensual than sexual). as I understand it, 
and I am but a student, maithuna varies in intensity and challenge
depending entirely on the condition and coordination of those who
are participants in the rite. some traditions proceed from gross
to subtle, others proceed inversely from subtle to gross in their
focus on interpenetration and resolution. 

for example, the rank beginner amongst the latter may find it best 
to use a symbolic stand-in for maithuna, whether something like
the Wiccan Chalice and Athame, some focus on statues or paintings
of deities, or a magical communion symbolized by agrarian standards
such as grains and fruits as part of a festivity. to the former,
this symbolic development would be considered "advanced practice",
largely because the two traditions function best for two people of
differing CONDITIONS. the RESULTS of the practice are what determine
which series (if not some other) that will be best for the person.

it is for this reason that such heated debates arise as regards the
"recommendability" of physical sex as a part of tantric spirituality
and ritual. for one condition this is how to BEGIN, those focussing
on the intensity of sexuality bringing their lust for sensation and
ecstasy into the realm of spiritual enterprise. for another condition
physical sex is best AVOIDED, substituting symbols (food products,
for example) in place of the stepped-up energy of intercourse. too
often people of differing conditions generalize that everyone is
alike to them and recommend their own procedures or condemn what
they deem as 'irresponsible practice', ignorant of this variance in
the needs of aspirants.
>Is this or is this not contrary to the needs for Maithuna?  
>Or is Maithuna the prescribed cure for an unhappy union?

so when you ask whether a dysfunctional relationship is contrary
to "the needs of maithuna", there are too many variables to
adequately respond. the only way to know is to get to know the
individuals very well and discover their condition and whether
and how such a practice would benefit them as a pair. this is
also a good reason that tantric relationships and advice are so
difficult to successfully negotiate via computer: there are too
many variables which only direct and immediate involvement will
allow all but the clairvoyant to surmise.

>Anyone who has lived in the Western world has had their energy messed up by
>advertising, social pressures, and parental mistakes.  How does one overcome
>this mess to be able to perform such a task?  

here I presume that "such a task" relates to the ultimate achievement,
the ideal which is often associated with maithuna, called 'The Great
Rite', 'the Great Work', and any number of other names by syncretists
and eclectics of the past. 

the way that one overcomes the conditioning of one's culture is 
through dissolving them either by focussed awareness alone or
during performing actions contrary to these conditionings. it is
for this reason that taboo-breaking is associated with some kinds
of tantra. how far one needs proceed in this de-conditioning in
order to attain to the ultimate is truly unknown and varies. the
state of liberation is rare enough and insufficiently understood
that quantifying the necessary criteria is usually only attempted
by the guru of any particular chela (and that by insight and a
comparison with the tradition and experience she brings to bear).

>IMO, this sort of union is nearly impossible in Western society.

if you would care to say something about what "this sort of union"
includes, as you see it, then we could all benefit from your 
knowledge. give us some glimpses of what you consider to be the
"goal state" or "goal experience" of the adept.

I tend to agree with you that there are many obstacles to such an
achievement in modern civilization, especially as may occur in
dense urban centers where communities are fragmenting as they are
compounded. and yet, it is just this kind of fragmentation that
allows the strong conditioning of small communities and families
to retain less of a hold on individuals. simultaneously this will
make possible more occurrences of sociopaths and vagrants (restless
wayfarers without rudder or development) as well as those for
whom the path of tantra is extremely well-suited. the traps of
mass-culture are less intrinsic and clutching to the individual,
and with a learned discipline instilled from educational,
parental, or even ecclesiastical experience, she may find a way
to turn the freedom afforded by disintegrating society into a
means of self-liberation (thus the recommendation that extremes
such as sexuality will become primary means of instruction in
the Kali age -- that period of 'darkness, disintegration, and
degradation' through which we are now said to be passing).


-- ; ; 
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