a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


Guru Benefits and Detriments

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.consciousness.mysticism
From: (nagasiva yronwode)
Subject: Guru Benefits and Detriments (was Re: Can't shut my mind up)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 08:53:45 GMT

50000618 Vom

sri catyananda concerning the problems with Sai Baba:
>>> Obviously, in many of their cases, having *that* guru 
>>> was worse than having none.

probably Emir:
>>Wrong. What do you think, how stupid they were before entering the
>>relationship with such a "guru"? And how much wiser are they now? 

this is irresponsible advice. the reason that traditions have
developed, ostensibly, is so that those taking on the role of
the external guru will be of a certain quality and maturity
so as not to mishandle and damage the dedicated.

your suggestion that deception, abuse, and manipulation by
the charlatan is not worse than having none does not strike
me as based on your own experience or the real descriptions
of people who have been 'taken for a ride' (to use one popular
title from a book about such a guru named 'Swami Rama', among
other names). this character of "wisdom" is hardly useful for
holistic spiritual development and will more than likely
cause a trauma which will COMPLICATE AND MAKE MORE DIFFICULT
any future guru-chela relationship.

>>It's not about taking care of your ass, it's about 
>>spiritual growth.

I don't think you know what spiritual growth is, based on
your expressions about it in usenet. I don't make that
comment lightly. (Sienna555):
>That is an excellent point!  I learned more from ppl claiming 
>to be what they were not than I have from ppl claiming to be 
>what they were.

I think you're seriously underestimating the depth and
psychic repercussions of a guru-chela relationship.

>>> No offense is intended to any legitimate guru or student -- I just
>>> wanted to speak on behalf of balance and social caution.
>>Social caution is poor substitute for intelligence. 

intelligence is not the likely result of the situation you
seem to be defending.

>>What would tiger be without it's ferocity? 
>>What's a man without exploratory spirit?

it is one thing to be aware of potential hazards and go out
to meet them, knowing the dangers and facing them squarely.
it is a completely different matter when one thinks that
one is absolutely safe and is cut down by a parasitic and
sociopathic assault with one's defenses down. this hardly
compensates anyone for an "exploratory spirit", though if
you're a spiritual thrill-seeker, then you can use the
caution as a challenge and go after faux guru to become
a chela! the warning needn't stop you and might point you
in the direction of new challenges.

>One cannot learn to walk without falling down a few times.

such a stupendous understatement can only be explained by
ignorance. the cataclysm of being betrayed and vampirized
by one's guru (esp. in traditional situations) should be
compared with abuse by one's parents. it is no joking matter
and probably more like falling from a cliff (which one does
not do 'a few times') and from which few if any ever derive
any kind of benefit.

blessed beast!
-- ; ; 
emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races