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To: alt.tarot From: "J. Karlin"Subject: Re: tarot fear Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 08:30:17 +0000 paul@digilink.net wrote: > So, what about Balaam who receives payment for divination yet > speaks with God in Num. 22? You need to read it again. Balaam is a professional sorceror the Moabites hire to curse the Israelites. God uses him, as he often does with 'evil-doers' to exact his will for the people of Israel. > Or the diviners of 1 Sam. 6 who speak God's > will to the Philistenes? Do you know who the Philistines are?? I don't think you understand the Bible. > Why would Isaiah 3 list the diviner and enchanter among > the honorable men of Israel? It does not. The warning here refers to the Lord's threat to bring down anarchy upon Israel. One way of doing this is to remove from Israel all those who might offer direction and guidance (even forbidden guidance). Again, you are not reading carefully. > Why does Proverbs 16:10 instruct the people to > listen to the divinations of the king? That's NOT what it says. Your performance here is just one more reminder of why it's dangerous to allow just anyone to read the Bible. The quote is--- "The king's mouth is an oracle, he cannot err when he passes sentence." ---and is merely a literary convention to express the fact that the king is the final arbiter and appeal for all legal matters. It certainly does NOT mean that the king should be engaged in divination. > Perhaps it would be more correct to assert that the Bible does indeed > condemn divination, but that upon closer examination. ---people know as little about the Bible as they do tarot. > St. Peter drew lots to select Judas' successor- after praying devoutly, > of course. :) OK, one more time---because we obviously have new readers who've not been given this sermon before---here are the scriptural arguements (from both Torah and Talmud) that proscribe divination. ------------------------------------------- These following is from a series of posts made on the question of whether or not the Bible prohibits divination and includes some notes on the difference between divination and prophecy. The real difference between the two comes in looking at the intentionality of the operator. Basically, if one intends to determine the divine will, that is a sin. Only the High Priest of Israel was allowed to do this. Revelation and prophecy, however, are something else altogether, and are acceptable because they are 'gifts' from God. Please note that none of this stuff represents my opinion about the value of divination or tarot. It does however represent my reason for thinking that any Christian or Jew who reads tarot cards has obviously not read his Bible. Now, the Bible includes MANY scriptures which, on their surface, appear to clearly prohibit magic and divination. The question was then raised about what the Talmudic commentaries had to say about these sciptures. And this is what is being discussed here--- On the question of 'intentionality' as it relates to the sin of divination, please refer to the following--- From the Babylonian Talmud, Soncino edition Hullin Tractate In a discussion of what constitutes a lawful omen versus an unlawful one (that is, divination) we read--- "An omen which is not after the form pronounced by Eliezar, Abrahams's servant, or by Jonathan, the son of Saul, is not considered a divination!" Eliezar in Gen 24:14 commands of Yahweh to show him a sign (whose form is established by Eliezar) so that he may know the Will of God for his master, Abraham. Jonathan in 1 Samuel 14:9-14 also intentionally establishes the conditions by which he shall know the Will of God. In both cases therefore, the conditions and forms by which the omen shall be received and interpreted are established by the receptor and interpreter BEFORE the sign is received with the intention of receiving the information. In other words they establish, before any sign comes to them, that if such and such a sign should appear it will mean this and if this other sign should appear it will mean that--- precisely the same thing one does when reading tarot cards which have pre-established meanings and conditions of interpretation associated with them. Therefore, tarot IS divination as described here and it is to be proscribed under the Law. On the question of Ślot-casting1--- Please note that when people are told by God to cast lots THAT can not be divination (which, by definition, is performed in accordance with the wishes of the operator, not God) and furthermore, in the case of the New Testament, that single episode was performed in the midst of a great crisis and certainly represented no more of a behavioral exhortation to emulate or repeat it than did Peter's cutting off the ear of the officer sent to arrest Jesus---it was a unique, understandable but unacceptable behavior. After all, why should Christians want to emulate the behavior of the Roman soldiers who also 'cast lots' to divide the clothing of the dead savior? On the meaning of Exodus 22:17 (18)--- ~From: Berakoth, chapter 3 On a question dealing with deriving meaning from the juxtaposition of texts it says: "Ben 'Azzai says: 'Thall shalt not suffer a sorceress to live' and it says immediately afterwards---'whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. The two statements were put together to tell you that just as one that lieth with a beast is put to death by stoning, so a sorceress also is put to death by stoning." "Because the two statements are juxtaposed, are we to take this one out to be stoned?" (in other words, is the proximity of the verses the ONLY reason to kill the witch?) "Rather, we learn it as follows-they that divine by a ghost or a familiar spirit come under the heading of sorceress. Why then were they mentioned separately? To serve as a basis for comparison: just as they that divine by a ghost or familiar spirit are to be stoned, so a sorceress is to be stoned." and later, this same discussion of 'semukim' (verse interpretations based on proximity of the texts) occurs in Yebamoth, chapter 1 "In truth, the penalty of the sorceress is derived from the following: the necromancer and the charmer were included among the sorcerer; why were they mentioned separately? In order that others may be compared to them, and to tell you that as the necromancer and the charmer are subject to the death penalty of stoning (Levi: 20, 27) so is a sorceress also subject to the penalty of stoning." In the Yerushalmi Talmud the discussion is enhanced in the Sanhedrin in 7:13 In a discussion of what constitutes forbidden magic--- "He who does a deed is liable---NOT merely one who creates an illusion---" (thus David Copperfield does not violate the Torah with his magic acts---but those claiming to do 'real' magic certainly do.) further on R. Akiva says--- "You shall not permit a sorceress to live. All the same are a sorcerer and a sorceress, that is, both are to put to death. But, in referring to a sorceress, the Torah has taught you how things really are, for the vast majority who practice sorcery are women." and R. Eleazar says--- "A sorcerer is subject to the death penalty through stoning!" Then in the Shabbat, Chapter 7 (in a discussion on separate culpability) "For R. Bun bar Hiyyas said : 'In the view of R. Ishmael, two matters which have been treated explicitly, separate from the general rule covering them, may be subject to separate counts of culpability. For R. Ishmael taught as follows: 'Now---are not divination and witchcraft subject to the same general prohibition of magic? They have been treated as distinct and requiring specification so as to make a distinction therein---thus indicating that one is culpable on each count." (and thus, presumably, may be doubly stoned to death) Please NOTE---there is a GENERAL prohibition against magic and the specifications of that prohibition include--- 1. Sorcery 2. Witchcraft 3. Divination 4. Necromancy and while some of these things overlap in meaning it is clear that the word 'mchasheifah' MUST have meant 'one who practices magic' (a female one in this case) because In Deuteronomy 18:10 the word is used (in the masculine) in the general prohibition against the 'abominable practices' of the Canaanites which include divination and sorcery as well as child-sacrifice AND, in Exodus 7:11 the word is used in plural (mchashfim) to refer to the magicians of Pharoah. Therefore, the meaning of the word is VERY clear and the only reason one might discuss the limited usage of 'poisoner' is in reference to the apparent confusion that may have been created when the Greek word 'pharmakous' was used in the Septuagint. Also, it is interesting to look at the phrasing of this verse because it uses 'not let live' instead of the usual 'shall be put to death' and this, according to the JPS Torah Commentary, indicates that this offense was seen as particularly vile and warranting a more severe and certain punishment than other death penalty offenses. So, there is no doubt that we've got to kill all the witches, but probably all the poisoners too. on the question of idolatry or idol-worship--- The Sanhedrin says- "He who engages in idol-worship is executed-it is all the same whether he serves it, sacrifices to it, offers incense to it, makes libations upon it, prostrates himself before it, accepts it as a god, or says to it-'thou art my god'." Thus, there is a distinction made here between using the power or deity (as in divination or magic) and actually accepting it as a god (worshipping it). Both are prohibited. Included in negative precept violations (those not punishable by death) includes asking anything in its name (including divinatory insights). And, in reference to your contention that most if not all prohibitions are meant purely as an ethnocentric prejudice against alien peoples and their deities---that misses again the theological premise operative here---that one can identify the power and goodness (and more importantly, the omniscience) of Yahweh both by what he allows and what he finds abominable and he must find magic and divination abominable because both practices seek to diminish the role of the omniscient and omnipotent God to decide the fate of the universe. What you or I may perceive as exceptions to his vast array of prohibitions misses this point---that the spirit of the Law MUST fundamentally be formulated in acknowledgment of Gods unique and privileged divinity--- privileged in that he and he alone is allowed to arbitrate the affairs of man and the universe. So, any behavior that contradicts this spirit MUST be deemed unlawful and sinful. That's also largely the point intended (and generally missed by 'believers') in Jesus' mission to fulfill the Law. (jk)
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