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To: alt.fan.surak
From: Rob Zook 
Subject: Re: Vulcan Training???
Date: 2 Jul 1997 04:14:25 GMT

At 04:41 PM 7/1/97 -0500, Saul wrote:
>From: Charles D Neely 
>Date: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 3:23 PM
>
>>Let us proceed from the assumption that the wording of the training
>>process is vague
>>What would be a more appropriate system?
>
>[occasional snipping...]


>1. Cognitive Discipline.
>  Study of Logic, Semantics and Mathematics.
>
>2. Sensory Discipline
>  Control and development of the senses. Physical and     psionic
>abilities are included.
>
>3. Reality Discipline
>  Study of scientific knowledge. Inductive and deductive   reasoning.
>
>4. Body Discipline
>  Development of willpower and control over the physical    body.
>Development of pain control.
>
>5. Philosophic Discipline.
>  Study of c'thia. Mastery of passion. Contemplation of   the Infinite. 
>
>
>Can you explain what distinction you intend to draw between 1,3, and 5?
>Between 2 and 4?

Interesting I was going to ask the exact same thing - Saul get outta
my head ;-) Hmm, or maybe I should say let me out of yours, as the
case may be.


How about this:

1. Mental Discipline.

    a. Cognative Control thru studies in Logic, Semantics and Mathematics. 
       General study of various scientific fields. Primary Emphasis on the
       use of Language. Secondary Emphasis on the Scientific Method 
       (including additions by Vulcan equivalent to Godel).
       
    b. Thought Control thru various forms of meditations and exercises.
       Visualization, exercise of Will over perception (By which I refer
       to solely the interpretation of sensory data, not much can be done
       to increase the effectiveness of the sense organs).

       
2. Physical Discipline.

   a. Physiological Control by Yoga-like exercises, physical development
      thru exercise and martial arts. Emphesis on limberness, strength
      agility, pain control, voluntary function control, and autonomic 
      function control.

   b. Emotional Control by Prajayana type exercises, tantric-like exercises.
      some of the stuff under this would doubtless seem familiar to 
      Western Hermetics, and Mystics.



Inductive and Deductive reason naturally come under a study of logic and
including them again separately seems a little redundant.

Again, just my way of categorizing, not the only or "right" way. This
always happens when one tries to categorize anything. Always somewhat
artificial, and arbitrary.

Even in my system one can still see some obvious overlapping between 
physiological, thought and emotional control.



Rob Z.
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From: Rob Zook 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.surak
Subject: Re: Vulcan Training???
Date: 7 Jul 1997 20:45:41 GMT
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At 08:36 AM 7/2/97 -0500, Saul wrote:
>I was sort of hoping you were in a similar headspace to mine, actually,
>because I don't feel up to rehearsing all my anti-epistemological
>arguments again right now.

Anti-epistemological? By itself that sounds like you don't belive 
knowledge has any use as a concept.


>>    a. Cognative Control thru studies in Logic, Semantics and
>Mathematics.
>>       General study of various scientific fields. Primary Emphasis on
>the
>>       use of Language. Secondary Emphasis on the Scientific Method
>>       (including additions by Vulcan equivalent to Godel).
>
>I would add Aesthetics to Logic, Semantics and Mathematics. Or make a
>Vulcan term that means all four.

Well, Aesthetics seems reeeally subjective to me. I have trouble
imagining studying it as a discipline. What else would you do
but study other peoples subjective interpretations so one could
regurgitate them on command. I know of no way to measure "artisitic
appreciation" so it all seems like opinion to me, and not arguable
or useful. 

Exposure to art certainly seems important, since it is one more 
way of experiencing the diversity of <>. However I don't think
you can instruct some one in how to do it as a discipline.

In any case, I did not really indent to make an totally inclusive list.
That would take a bit more effort. The main emphasis I wanted to make
was on controlling one's cognition thru the understanding of Language's
pitfalls, and learning to minimize these pitfalls by studying Logic_s_*,
Semantics and Mathematics. All of which form the basis for the Scientific
Method. The Scientific Method seems the most useful for producing
consistent, reliable models of <>.

* I added the "s" to imply one should study more than just simple 
Aristolean true/false logic.


>>Again, just my way of categorizing, not the only or "right" way. This
>>always happens when one tries to categorize anything. Always somewhat
>>artificial, and arbitrary.
>
>Of course. But societies are made of these...

I know. 


>>Even in my system one can still see some obvious overlapping between
>>physiological, thought and emotional control.
>
>I was going to mention that. With the exception of "limberness,
>strength, agility," the entirety of your Physical Discipline looks like
>it could be shoved up under Mental Discipline (b). Or, inversely, the
>entirety of your Mental Discipline could be split up and added under
>Physical Discipline. Nothing necessitates that Vulcans draw a line
>between mind and body in the same place as any one Terran culture does
>-- or even that they draw such a line at all.

Yeah, and I did not mean to imply they would buy into such a 
false dichotomy. It just seemed a convenient model at the time.

At 01:52 PM 7/2/97 -0500, Saul wrote:
>>Charles Wrote
>>1 is the discipline of process
>>2 is the discipline of awareness
>>3 is the discipline of knowledge
>>4 is the discipline of vessel
>>5 is the discipline of purpose
>> I think that is the way it should be but I really need help on some
>of
>>these.
>
>I'm sorry, but substituting words will take us a long time to get
>anywhere. You've said cognition is process, sensation is awareness,
>reality is knowledge, body is vessel, philosophy is purpose. But since
>I understand philosophy, reality, and cognition to stand in a circle of
>mutual causation it makes more sense to put them together. So perhaps a
>circle of
>
>-> action -> sensation -> cognition -> action ->
>
>leaving you with three disciplines, with cognition standing for the
>business of integrating sensation with memory to form knowledge which
>in turn stands as a basis for action?
>

Hmmm...If you want to go the process diagram route, how about this:

      / Biological Impulse\                   /            \
      | Instinctual Drive  |                 | Various Body |
+---->| Emotional Reaction |-- Messages ---->| Systems      |--->+
^     | Habit Prompting    |                 |              |    |
|     \ Conscious Thought /                   \            /     |
|                                                                |
|                        /             \                         |
|                       |  Sensation,   |                        V
+<------ Messages ------| and External/ |<-------- Actions ------+
                        |   Internal    |
                        |    Events     |
                        | in Space-Time |
                         \             /

Of course, the whole system seem much more complex than that. I
just present a much simplified, high-level abstraction.



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