THE |
|
a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects. |
To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.mythology,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Subject: Various: Deities and Transcendence Date: 20 Dec 1997 15:20:32 -0800 [HH]: Jeffery Smith wrote: >Somewhere amid the verbiage about Horus and ancient Egypt, someone >brought up the point of transcendent gods, and then showed that they >have an at best mistaken idea of what transcendence is--in that they >stated (not extact wording) that a deity that transcends manifest >existence would by that token be unable to have any effect on manifest >existence. >A truly transcendent deity transcends everything, including the concept >of transcendence and the concept of existence. All our human concepts >and ideas do not apply to such a being, but whatever we say about it will >not be accurate, and require us to immediately assert the opposite to >even approach accuracy. So to say that God transcends (in the common >sense of the word) manifest existence means that not only does God >transcend, but that God does not transcend, manifest existence (i.e., is >immanent). The same "Being" is both beyond and within manifest >existence, and is in fact the Something that gives the Nothings of >manifest existence their manifest existence. > >If you want a better explanation, refer to the "Mystical Theology" of the >Corpus Areopagiticum, or its early English translation by the author of >the Cloud of Unknowing (Dionysius Hid Divinitie), which is the classic >Western statement of the matter. This discussion deals with more than the notion of transcendence itself; it deals with that and immanence, and with indefinability, and with coming-into-being. At any rate, the allegedly mistaken idea can only be seen through the eyes of a different definition of transcendence. Transcendence and immanence: As for "classic Western statement," the fact is, beyond the work mentioned in the quote given above, transcendence has been a theological concept ever since Plato, and classical transcendentalism even owes the codification of its "grammar" to the same (Kenney 1991. Mystical Monotheism. Hanover: Brown University, p. 1). In respect to the meaning of the word, English owes the verb _transcend_ to Latin _transcendere_ "surmount" or "climb beyond" (Skeat, pp. 519 and 416). Hence in English, using the verb's basic sense, one may say "That which is sublime transcends the beautiful, for it inspires awe as well rather than delight alone." And yet this statement does not require a balancing negation in order for it to be accurate, or at least for it to effectively communicate an idea. But, as when discussing the nature of a deity, _transcendent_ typically refers to a condition or manner of being outside of the corporeal world. As an explicit example of a contemporary usage of the word: monotheisim "is defined simply as the thesis that there is an ultimate divine principle transcendent of the physical universe" (Kenney 1991, xxiii). Kenney's statement does not contain its opposite, that a god, transcending the physical universe, must also not transcend it. In respect to immanence in particular, the following: monotheism is in direct contrast to pantheism, wherein divinity is described as being everywhere present in the physical universe, i.e. immanent, simply owing to a deity's proposed relationship to the physical universe. It is the opposition between transcendence and immanence that distinguishes monotheism from pantheism, for the one quality is logically exclusive of the other. Said another way, something that is everywhere in the physical universe cannot at the same time be nowhere in it. Not logically. (If one always decries logic, then one is a hypocrite for reading, writing, speaking, and listening.) What is more, _manifest existence_ as I use the term refers to perceptible being; check your dictionary for the meaning I give to _manifest_: it is something that is at hand, something plain to the sight or to intellectual apprehension. Something that is manifest is in this world as a being separate from other beings, else it could not be perceived, could not be distinguished for separate qualities from other things. Show me immanence. Show me transcendence. Show me how either of these things are manifest here and now. The sun-god appearing in the horizon is manifest in the horizon as the sun. Being manifest, he is separate from the horizon itself and other things. Being separate from other things, he is not present everywhere, is not immanent. Also, being apparent in the physical world, here and now, he has not transcended the same. In a theological context, "the sun-god of the horizon is not a transcendent god" is a true statement. On the other hand, one could rightly say "the sun transcends the horizon at dawn." Indefinability: Jeffery Smith wrote: >All our human concepts >and ideas do not apply to such a being [a truly transcendent deity], but >>whatever we say about it will >not be accurate, and require us to immediately assert the opposite to >even approach accuracy. If you mean to say that spoken or written words, since at least carried by a medium of material substance, cannot accurately describe a deity which transcends such a medium, then I agree. On the other hand, that one is required to immediately assert an opposite is a doctrine, a dogma, not something which logically follows from the imperfection of words' media. Nor yet from the imperfection of representative communication, the words themselves. Moreover, the notion that any-god-you-like is indefinable, that is, insusceptible to description, is a dogma, and a contradictory one, for it is by definition itself that such a god is indefinable. Such a definition is useless in the here and now. But this is not to say that it is useless elsewhere, or in getting there. In fact, the concept of indefinability is a key feature of, for example, Christian theology in respect to the father, and of for another example Plotinus, also in respect to the father, and well before him. And even now. (Incidentally, the reader ought not understand that the present use of logic can be construed as being indicative of a partisan attitude toward the same, or for a disregard for irrationality. Theology is not revelation, faith, religion, or a substitute for any of these.) Coming-into-being: Jeffery Smith wrote: >The same "Being" is both beyond and within manifest >existence, and is in fact the Something that gives the Nothings of >manifest existence their manifest existence. Your family has been too long away from Israel; that sounds almost like a Christian dogma, as when the Father, transcendent, brings into being the universe via the mediation of the Son, and may be immanent in the universe via the Holy Ghost, or the like, though all the while each of these three names refers to a single, undivided deity. Dogmatically, along with or similarly to a Christian, one could say that there is a deity who is transcendent of the physical universe, who is also the instrumentally creative mediator between itself and the physical universe, and who at the same time fully permeates the physical universe. And no one in this world could disprove it, though one could show, as I have just now done, that such a statement is logically untenable. Such a statement, not being derived from argument, is a dogmatic one, a statement of irrational creed, faith, or perhaps even revelation, but is nevertheless a definition whose only support is itself. Which brings me to the last point: Definition: In saying "A truly transcendent deity transcends everything, including the concept of transcendence and the concept of existence" one has offered another's special definition of "a truly transcendent deity." One could say "You prove yourself mistaken in saying that _Mesopotamia_ includes part of the Zagros mountains; it most certainly does not." Anyone can give any definition to any word and insist that other usages of such a word are mistaken. I will not say that my usage of transcendence is the only right one, or even one right one, but it at least has the advantage of having been adopted from a person who has examined the documents wherein this theological concept first becomes coherent in the West, from one who speaks a jargon understood by theologians living now. In the same way, I use my dictionary whenever I wish to support my use of a word, but this is not to say that my dictionary's definition of a word is the only right one; there might be some dictionary that gives totally different meanings for my entries, in which case perhaps what I might have to say would not be understandable to those other-dictionary users. But I would sincerely hope that such an other-dictionary user, based soley upon his other dictionary, would not have the insolence to tell me that an idea I associate with a word is "mistaken." ================================================ Jeffrey Smith: Harold, I am not saying that your use of the word "transcendent" is mistaken; but it is not (pace Kenney and all the other jargonites you have investigated) the meaning that classic Western mysticism applies to the word. Panentheism is found from Neoplatonism on, at least; the form I give to it is not Christian, but directly from Rabbinical Kabbalah. And there is nothing inherently illogical. It is in fact very logical. 1) The Deity transcends (in the standard dictionary meaning you quote) everything that is part of the tangible universe. 2) Our ideas, concepts, etc. are part of the tangible universe. Therefore 3) the Deity transcends our ideas, concepts, etc. 4) Transcendence and existence, immanence and (in)definability are idea and concepts-- 5) therefore the Deity transcends even such things as transcendence and existence. 6) So the the standard formulations of transcending, etc. do not apply because we find the Divine Transcending of Transcendence implies the Divine Immanence when it is examined in detailed in light of the above. While you may find fault with some parts of the above, I think you objections would be answered from other parts of the syllogism, and that the general idea is valid. The idea that in talking about the Divine (by which I do not mean any god, but purely any divine being who is claimed to be truly transcendent) one must assert the opposite is just another working out of the above. One could even apply the fourfold Buddhist logic of it is A, is not A, is both A and not-A, is neither A nor notA with no impediment. As for the tangibility or manifestness of the Divine Transcendent and Immanent, just look into yourself.... ========================================================== EOF -- (emailed replies may be posted); http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi; 408/2-666-SLUG join the esoteric syncretism in alt.magick.tyagi; http://www.abyss.com/tokus
The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist: tyaginator@arcane-archive.org. |
Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site. |
The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories, each dealing with a different branch of religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge. Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit: |
|
interdisciplinary:
geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc. |
SEARCH THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):
OTHER ESOTERIC AND OCCULT SITES OF INTEREST
Southern
Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo,
including slave narratives & interviews
|