THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
	a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.

To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org
From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nigris (333))
Subject: Thelemic Metaphysics (was True Wills?...)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:14:30 -0700 (PDT)

49990808 IVom

"Roberti, Anthony" :
# 93 Frater 333!

E6
 
"Roberti, Anthony" :
# > # I seem to be hearing from several of you that, how things turn 
# > # out is how they were "meant" to turn out.  It's easy to say 
# > # that after the fact.  Before the fact it's damn near 
# > # impossible to tell which is the best course of action for a 
# > # person, the course of action most favorable to Universe.

(elaborating) 
# ...without K & C, it is damn near impossible to know for certain
# that one is acting in accord with True Will... 

is it ever possible to know for certain?

# yet, True Will seems to manifest itself in the end.  

always, yes.

# If one knows one's True Will, then one can save oneself the 
# grief of a mistaken course of action -- this seems to be the
# touted advantage.

unless there is a true will potentia field, in which case the
cosmology is that there are open ROUTES available and knowing
which of these are open is helpful in getting anywhere (a maze
hidden from our perceptions).
 
# This sounds like destiny!

sounds like, but is not necessarily.
 
# ...comparison .... of True Will to destiny.  I'm having trouble 
# differentiating True Will from destiny.  But, it seems to me 
# that destiny is the opposite of will.

predestination does appear to negate the value of will. however,
the true will may not require a certain course (having several
options available, if one but perceives them).
 
# K & C appears to be a rare phenomenon, yet most plants and 
# animals appear to operate in a fashion analogous to K & C.

I'd appreciate it if you would explain what you mean by 'K & C'
in some more detail, especially when you talk about plants like
this. I'm not sure what you are observing that you are associating
with K/C/HGA.

# > # (Again, that concept requires the presumption that 
# > # Universe is Of One Mind, which I dispute.)
# > 
# > it requires it? why?
 
# For destiny to be laid out there must be one mover behind it all.

I don't follow this logic. if there is a single possible course
based on contiguous physical laws, for example, and these
collaborate in leading to a single result, I don't see that any
kind of Prime Mover is at all required. there could be no origin
and no end-point, these being but fallacious constructs of those
what take ourselves as finite and limited beings.

# *Otherwise,* you move up the hierarchy of decision until you 
# reach a level of being that has no destiny laid out for it.  
# It creates its own destiny, in a way, and sets the destiny of 
# those beings that fall under its influence.

I'd say that those beings which have a severely restricted
course of options available to us would be 'destined', but I've
played countless games which served as model alternatives in
which the choice one makes determines the options available at
any one moment. a shifting maze in which we are all maze-makers
and maze-runners and maze-destroying allows us to at some points
have options and at others have none. the dynamics or protocols
of the prerequisites for the making, running and destroying 
(the 'rules of the game' as it were) would become intensely
valuable to any such beings operating in such a landscape. it
could be argued that this is what religion and magick have
been struggling with for centuries (e.g. Torah, New Testament,
Book of the Law, etc.).

'true will' might, in this context, mean 'course of action
available with sufficient energetic input'. therefore, the
variables would be:

	* current configuration (options available in the
	  immediate and long-term future given position
	  and condition)

	* energy available (applied in different amounts
	  to various locations will produce different
	  results and open other options to due to 
	  changing the current configuration)

	* dynamics of action (the 'rules', if there are
	  any, of how will may be applied, how true will
	  may be affected, etc.)
 
this model does not admit of any 'destiny' as there are
MANY possible options at any one position which one may
choose. I can type any key on the keyboard at this time.

			\ 

if I choose one which does not lead to a character, then
it may have little effect. if I type the right combination
this email will be deleted, never sent. none of this sets
out my 'destiny', but I cannot send all possible emails at
once or communicate a different message at the same time
(at least in this single universe -- I always leave room
for the many-universes theory dreamed up by a variety of
scientists, authors and comic book creators).

# If K & C were to confer upon the mage this state, a sort 
# of godhood where the mage can set his or her own destiny, 
# then it shouldn't seem like obligation, 

you appear to be talking about the formula:

	Knowledge and Conversation of/with the Holy Guardian Angel

		may lead to

	Discovery of the True Will

		which makes possible

	The Great Work

if this is true, then I don't think that the K/C "confers"
the discovery or coincidence with the true will. my impression
is that the K/C is initiated, then becomes an OPTION for this
discovery (through the interaction -- the quality and style of
this interaction appears to vary quite a bit). that is, it MAY
lead to it but doesn't have to.

where the confusion may come in with regard to obligation is
that many mages appear to think that along with the blessings
or benefits of the discovery of the true will go a batch of
rules which allow one to coincide with it on a consistent
basis. these rules may be called 'obligations' in that one
may see them as payments for having accomplished something
(I am blessed, therefore I owe; or I am entrusted with this
power, therefore I am obligated to act according to this or
that moral paradigm or face certain consequences which I will
not enjoy, such as being stripped of power or encountering
certain repercussions of penalty).
 
'destiny' is different than obligation in that one apparently
cannot avoid it. whereas it is possible that one can avoid
certain ROUTES of the true will (notably those which are
considered valiant, honorable, noteworthy, laudable, 
admirable, charitable, glorious, whatever). it is possible
that certain obligations are installed as a prerequisite for
certain true will options.

when I said that the only way to KNOW what was one's true
will was to look backward, I was not talking about destiny.
I might just as well have said that looking back was the
only way to determine what was a possible configuration of
the cosmos.

# the way I've read True Will appears in practice: the HGA says
# jump, and we say how high.  

I'm not sure that the relationship is always that clear-cut or
directional. also, I think that the Angel needs us also and
may have its own motivation and adventure it may be engaging. 
this may, of course, be my projection.

# This does not make us god, rather the opposite, a loyal 
# subject, a slave.

if this were the case I'd agree. I've never had this type of
relationship with my Angel/Goddess/Lover. I refused to accept
it. perhaps those who dominate others must be dominated as a
consequence. perhaps dedication is its own reward and facades
merely a detour.

# The paradox here appears to be that promising service to 
# one's HGA is supposed to make one free, in a sense never 
# before experienced by humans.

I'd suggest that merely promising it is insufficient. for
those who enter into such a relationship, the service has
transformational value, magical repercussions of a mystical type.
 
#># ...developing a method whereby the True Will can be 
#># established beforehand....

(elaborating) 
# "Established" in the sense of, "put beyond doubt," 
# rather than, "brought into existence."  The only way to 
# "establish" what one's True Will is to achieve K & C 
# or the equivalent.

I strongly doubt that it is ever so established.
 
#># The rights guaranteed to thelemites are those outlined in Liber OZ, 
#># but they can only be acted on in accord with True Will, 

(elaborating) 
# ...I've been told by others in this discussion that Liber OZ is
# not a "do what you want" list, but a list of rights one has 
# only when acting in accord with True Will.  In that thread I've 
# been arguing that Liber OZ says nothing about True Will.  So I 
# agree, this makes no sense.

I would reword this to say that 

	in order to accomplish this guarantee of rights (OZ) 
	for all, the true will must be sought and abided as 
	it constitutes the proper orbit available to all stars. 
	doing otherwise is elitism and hypocritical as the Law
	is for all.

# I'm not the only one who has reported here being told by my HGA to do
# something I didn't want to do.  I've done it, in every case so far, 
# but I've not necessarily been happy about it, nor has it been easy.  
# It's hard for me to talk about a situation where I take orders from 
# someone as "doing my will."

unless your Angel is not apart from you and is showing you your
true will; a communicant of sorts. I would recommend refusing to
take orders from anyone if you don't know it to be your will,
but I'm a willful sunupapeach. :> perhaps that's why my Angel
doesn't give me orders? when I've heard such orders I never
interpreted them as coming from my Goddess/Angel/etc. as I would
refuse to believe that She would treat me that way (she *loves*
me, why would my Lover become so harsh? I still don't know the
answer to this as I see Her in my fiance and betrothed -- I can
only rationalize that She has Her own journey and I am to wrangle
with another will which only *appears* to be different than mine).
 
# > # The concept of True Will that's been presented to me promises 
# > # "do that, and no other shall say nay," IOW success.  
# > 
# > don't believe everything that is promised. the Evul Book is
# > just a book after all.
# 
# Oh, I don't, I'm just lashing out at the thelemic doctrine that 
# interprets the Book of the Law that way.

there is more than one way to interpret that bit of doggerel. :>
perhaps the true will is the tao, against which there is NEVER
resistance, since tao is so subtle as to be imperceivable except
to the Sage. no other says nay because no other exists. perhaps
no other says nay in the sense of opposition which overcomes one.
success is guaranteed, but not without the possibility of a
struggle (after all, 'as brothers fight ye!').

as has been discussed by Cavalorn in another thread, 'success'
may also not be what we expect. 
 
#># not to play.  Maybe it is a *good* thing that most of us do 
#># not know our True Will (or at least half of us, LOL!)
#> 
#> if we did we'd waste less of our time and energies.
# 
# ...isn't it a waste of time for the ant nest that eventually 
# "loses" to take part?...

what constitutes a 'waste of time'? cf. Carse's finite and
infinite games. the struggle within one contest/context may
prepare us for a more important or simply a different one
in some important way. discipline and battle refine the
weapon. failure may be one of the most perfect instructors.
  
# ...why should one go along if one's HGA tells one to do 
# something futile?  Just on the "faith" that it will help 
# Universe run smoother?  

guess it depends on the individual. I say OPPOSE the 'HGA'
that instructs or commands. what should be the 'proper'
relationship in K/C? I think all those who maintain that
they know the best one and that it should be subservience
are stating this because they are hung up on certainty and
are getting dominated and so want to justify it by passing
on this domination to others. don't believe the HYPE!
 
#   I suppose the problem is one of perspective.

agreed. fuck the HGA if she can't treat you right. I say
have some self-respect. perhaps she'll boss you around
until you get some gumption to resist hir with integrity?
 
# 93   93
#    93

E666

blessed beast!
______________________________________________________________________
(333) nagasiva@luckymojo.com; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html
I don't read everything here; cc me if you absolutely want a response.
____________...oooOOO---thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________
To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe" to thelema93-l-request@hollyfeld.org
To unsubscribe your@email.com send "unsubscribe your@email.com"
To unsubscribe from the digest send to thelema93-l-digest-request@hollyfeld.org
http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/elists/thelema93-l.phtml