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The Use of Thou

To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com
From: Magdalene Meretrix 
Subject: The Use of Thou (was Re: [t93] The "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" formula)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:24:43 -0700

At 10:58 AM 1/28/01 -0600, Alamantra wrote:

>  Right now I am discussing particularly the implications of Crowley's (or
>Aiwass') use of the word 'thou'. Is there anyone here who can direct me to
>any specific quotes Crowley made about the use of that word as opposed to
>'you' or even 'ye'? The thought that I have been trying to advance is the
>concept that the word 'Thou' implies a transition beyond the image of the
>self and identifies the magician with Deity, whereas their own use of the
>word 'ye' tends to confine the aspirations to the image of "self."

My best guess is that Crowley (or Aiwass) was using "thou" beacuse it is an
older English word, common around the time of the King James version of the
Bible (1600s) and thus makes a piece of spiritual writing sound "more
religious and legitimate" to the average English-speaking person raised in
a Christian culture.

In modern English, we (other than Quakers, that is) use the words "you" and
"yours" to indicate both the singular and plural second person in all cases. 

Here's a "simple" breakdown of the you/thou/etc paradigm:

*****OLD ENGLISH*****

NOMINATIVE (subject of sentence):

Singular: Thou
Plural: Ye

OBJECTIVE (objective of sentence):

Singluar: Thee
Plural: You

POSSESSIVE (indicates ownership):

Singular: Thy, Thine
Plural: Your, Yours

REFLEXIVE (self-referencing):

Singular: Thyself
Plural: Yourselves

*****MIDDLE ENGLISH*****
(probably influenced by the French forms which have special pronouns to
indicate familiarity or respect (Tu/Vous))

NOMINATIVE (subject of sentence):

Familiar: Thou
Singular: Ye
Plural: Ye

OBJECTIVE (objective of sentence):

Familiar: Thee
Singular: You
Plural: You

POSSESSIVE (indicates ownership):

Familiar: Thy, Thine
Singular: Your, Yours
Plural: Your, Yours

REFLEXIVE (self-referencing):

Familiar: Thyself
Singular: Yourself
Plural: Yourselves

*****EARLY MODERN ENGLISH*****
(the language of Shakespeare and the King James Bible)

NOMINATIVE (subject of sentence):

Familiar: Thou
Singular: You
Plural: You

OBJECTIVE (objective of sentence):

Familiar: Thee
Singular: You
Plural: You

POSSESSIVE (indicates ownership):

Familiar: Thy, Thine
Singular: Your, Yours
Plural: Your, Yours

REFLEXIVE (self-referencing):

Familiar: Thyself
Singular: Yourself
Plural: Yourselves


The more archaic form of "ye" was still in evidence during the Early Modern
English period, but by the end of the 16th century it was primarily
restricted to religious and literary contexts. By the end of the 17th
century, "thou" went the same way as "ye."

>From the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, 1995:

"By the time of Shakespeare, you had developed the number ambiguity it
retains today, being used for either singular or plural; but in the
singular it also had a role as an alternative to thou / thee. It was used
by people of lower rank or status to those above them (such as ordinary
people to nobles, children to parents, servants to masters, nobles to the
monarch), and was also the standard way for the upper classes to talk to
each other. By contrast, thou / thee were used by people of higher rank to
those beneath them, and by the lower classes to each other; also, in
elevated poetic style, in addressing God, and in talking to witches,
ghosts, and other supernatural beings. There were also some special cases:
for example, a husband might address his wife as thou, and she reply with you.

"Of particular interest are those cases where an extra emotional element
entered the situation, and the use of thou or you broke the expected
conventions. Thou commonly expressed special intimacy or affection; you,
formality, politeness, and distance. Thou could also be used, even by an
inferior to a superior, to express such feelings as anger and contempt. The
use of thou to a person of equal rank could thus easily count as an insult,
as Sir Toby Belch well knows when he advises Sir Andrew Aguecheek on how to
write a challenge to 'the Count's youth' (Viola): 'if thou thou'st him some
thrice, it shall not be amiss' (Twelfth Night, III.ii.42), himself using a
demeaning thou in a speech situation where the norm is you. Likewise, the
use of you when thou was expected (such as from master to servant) would
also require special explanation."

Hope this helps out!

Agape,
Sparrow

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From sentto-1949225-6955-980729351-nagasiva=luckymojo.com@returns.onelist.com  Sun Jan 28 16:43:37 2001
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Subject: Re: [t93] The "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" formula
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At 07:41 PM 1/28/01 EST, rikb2@aol.com wrote:

> "Thou" doesn't imply address to divinity in any way, 
>but the fact that thou was used to refer to God probably shows a desire for 
>intimate relationship with God 

That may be true. There is also the explanation that seems more likely to
me -- by the time the King James Bible was written, "Thou" was becoming an
archaic form already. It was mainly used for religious, archaic and
literary writing at that time. The sense of "familiarity vs. respect" in
Thou/You was a relic of Middle English that sounded "ancient and
impressive" to Early Modern English ears.

Since "thou" was fading out of everyday use in the 1600-1700s, My guess is
that the King James Bible uses the pronouns in the manner it does, not so
much to show a desired intimacy with God as to use "fancy language."

Not terribly unlike Crowley's/Aiwass's use of Thou.

Agape,
Sparrow

--
For regular updates on Magdalene Meretrix's writing, recording and
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Subject: Re: [t93] The "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" formula
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In a message dated 1/28/01 5:20:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
alamantra@netzero.net writes:

> DWTW:
>  
>  Greetings:
>  
>  I am involved in a discussion with some local Wiccans about the differences
>  and similarities between their rede, "An as it harm none, do as ye will" 
and
>  our own "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
>    Right now I am discussing particularly the implications of Crowley's (or
>  Aiwass') use of the word 'thou'. Is there anyone here who can direct me to
>  any specific quotes Crowley made about the use of that word as opposed to
>  'you' or even 'ye'? The thought that I have been trying to advance is the
>  concept that the word 'Thou' implies a transition beyond the image of the
>  self and identifies the magician with Deity, whereas their own use of the
>  word 'ye' tends to confine the aspirations to the image of "self."

     Seems rather a silly distinction to me. Originally, the simple 
distinction in English was that ye/you was used with the plural while 
thee/thou was singular. Thou became considered a form of address that was 
particularly intimate in later usage (around the time of Shakespeare or just 
before if I'm not mistaken), or else used by a person of high rank to a 
person of lower rank. Ye or You became considered a more formal usage, used 
to address superiors. "Thou" doesn't imply address to divinity in any way, 
but the fact that thou was used to refer to God probably shows a desire for 
intimate relationship with God -- it would probably have been considered 
impetuous for a commoner to call a noble "thou." See "Twelfth Night" Act 3, 
scene 2 for an example of intentional snubbing by using "thou." Sir Andrew 
Aguecheek is looking for a way to provoke another man into a duel to impress 
his love, Olivia. Olivia's uncle, Sir Toby, advises:

"Go, write it [the challenge] in a martial hand; be curst and brief...taunt 
him with the license of ink: if thou thou'st him some thrice, it shall not be 
amiss."

If we consider that "do what thou wilt" is spoken by Nuit to humankind, then 
by using thou, she is asserting intimacy with us, or else treating us as 
inferior beings. "Do what ye will" would be inappropriate unless humans are 
of higher station than Nuit. (In the Book of Job, for example, God calls 
Satan "thou" in the KJV, not "ye" or "you.") There's also the much simpler 
idea that Crowley was trying to sound archaic and biblical, although I 
imagine he would be very well aware of the difference in usage between you 
and thou. 

93 93/93
RIKB

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