a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


Thelemic Representation/Authority

To: Usenet
From: (xiwangmu)
Subject: Thelemic Representation/Authority (LONG/OTO)(Was Re: Typhonian trad...)
Date: 9 Dec 1995 06:21:03 -0800

49951209 composed and lost, second try

E6 (Bill Heidrick; GTG/OTO):

#|neither [Bill] nor any other Officer of the OTO speaks for 
#|the Order membership as a whole....  there is no consistent doctrine 
#|agreed-upon by its membership....

#OTO is not a democracy.  The demographics of individual OTO member belief
#pattern are irrelevant to what OTO says as OTO.  

But they do play a part in explaining precisely what you mean by 'OTO says X',
since that is one of the most common ways you will be interpreted.  Thus if 
you wish to be clear, you have to explain more fully (which you are doing 
in response to my queries).

#In OTO, all you have to do is believe in Liber AL on your own terms 

This says nothing about of what that belief consists.

#and otherwise conform to the minimum structural rules that are necessary 
#for the continued existence of OTO in accord with its nature.  

These are mostly administrative and don't include an agreement to abide
a set of beliefs to which all OTO members shall conform.

#OTO trys, among other things, to provide a model for function in a 
#believing society.

What is a 'believing society'?  Are there unbelieving societies?  How does

OTO provide this model?  By saying 'OTO believes X' even when its members
may not?

#The individuals can't be expected to believe exactly as the common vehicle
#provides in all it's details.  

Why does the 'common vehicle' (the Officers) have to have any 'beliefs' at
all?  Why can't y'all just say what you think at the time in reflection of
the Law of Thelema?  Would you please delineate between your own beliefs
as a person separate from the OTO and the OHO's dictums which you must
propagate?  Is this usually a function of the 'GTG/OTO' .sig?  If so, ought
we presume that every time you use it you become a mouthpiece for the OTO

#Old Aeon social structures required members to lie about that as often 
#as not.  

Isn't that what you are doing now, or being deceptive at least?

#As a Thelemic model religion and society, 

Do you think that you are fairly presenting a model of Thelema by deceiving
readers into thinking that all OTO members think alike?

That is, using corporate-ease, isn't this one more Old Aeon example of
doublespeak to influence the slumbering herds?  Is this an example of how
a Thelemic society functions?  Are you the equivalent of the President's
spokesperson concerning 'what the US govt (supposedly the people) believes'?

#OTO provides a pattern which allows individual creation of world view.  

Of what does this pattern consist?  Given an individual worldview creation,
why must OTO Officials go on to have one of 'its own' (i.e. the 
OHO/Officers making up whatever they may find palatable)?

#It's quite ...impossible to be the same as that thing and everybody in it.  

True, but why can't the Order Officials use the Fourth Power of the Sphinx
(silence) and let the membership carry the Message of the Law to the masses?
What I see is that you're operating as head with no body.  Eventually,
seeing the difference between what 'OTO believes' as portrayed by you, and
what individual OTO members portray to the world, you'll start turning
people away, won't you?  

Perhaps this is like the Catholic Church.  Does this have anything to do
with the EGC?  How much?

#Democracy is Old Aeon, just as Tyranny is Old Aeon.  

Uh, ok.  I wasn't talking about government but about representation of 
the Order of which you are the GTG and how that is deceitful.  Are you
saying that deceit is important to the Law of Thelema or the 'New AEon'?

#In this form, there is central definition and distal variation.

What is the value of central definition (the Officers telling us what
'OTO believes')?  Why cannot the center be relegated to dispersing
the reflections and commonalities of the distal variation (the
individual OTO members and their thoughts/values)?  Is there some
method to this form?  What are the advantages of central definition?

#|Even *feigned* acceptance of some all-encompassing 
#|'Doctrine of OTO' flies in the face of what most of
#|those who consider ourselves 'Thelemites' hold dear.

#Feigned acceptance does fly in the face of Thelema to an extent.
#What does this have to do with the issue?

I am asking if deceit is the currency of Thelema.

I am asking if you expect common folk to distinguish between the center
and distal without your explanation (until I ask).  

I'm asking if what you are doing will have liberative effects which
many people associate with Thelema or if you are perpetuating Old AEon
standards of doublespeak and bait-n-switch.

#|I think the careful analysis would include quotes from _Aleister Crowley
#|and the Hidden God_, which I am currently reading for the first time.


Careful analysis of the issue of what Grant thinks about Aleister Crowley
and his gods would include a book by Grant on this subject.

#|OTO doesn't have the capacity for broad-ranging statements concerning 
#|the beliefs of its membership, and there is no required dogma, so the 
#|usage of 'OTO' is simply obfuscatory and deceitful.

#Of course OTO can make broad-ranging statements concerning the beliefs of
#the membership.  Such statements are in fact echoed above.  

Those aren't the ones I'm talking about.  I'm talking about statements
which give the impression that OTO thinks and does everything as a 

#|What you *really mean* (and don't often say for fear of
#|its silliness) is that 'OTO Officials would not accept that'.

#What silliness?  

The silliness that you try to sound like you speak for the whole in
regards beliefs even though you cannot.

#...It's always only one OTO official who decides these things.  That's the
#nature of OTO.  The OHO takes the council of whom he or she pleases and
#makes the decision for matters of this kind.  

Matters of what kind?  Theoretical?  What OTO will promote in a deceitful
way to influence the popular mindset?  If the OHO told you that 'OTO now
believes in unicorns' would you then expound on exactly *how* 'OTO sees
unicorns and other faere folk', etc.?  If the OHO reversed hir ideas
about a subject how would you handle this in public?

#Representatives such as myself occasionally have to put that forward as 
#the official view of OTO.

In effect you put forward the decrees of a Thelemic Pope, calling your
expression 'a statement of what OTO believes'.  In fact the membership
is not a body of similiar believing people, and so your words are merely
political propaganda, whether youulike doing the job or not, yes?

#Otherwise, we have the usual details of knowing the operations, pattern,
#history and such to put forward with our individual opinions.

Occasionally you don't?  You just say 'OTO thinks X' and then make up
the rest?  Or do you have to go back to the OHO for more to say to the
public about what the OTO believes?

Are you really that hamstringed/determined by the OHO?
Could you explain exactly what the OHO *is* to the OTO?
 Will that change over time with the evolution of the Order?
 What are the designated duties and responsibilities of the OHO?
How often do you interact with said individual?
Are there printed documents containing the various OHO decrees?


CC public responses to email (I may respond publically to any email I receive).
	READ alt.magick.tyagi
        TRY :

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races