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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.misc,alt.thelema From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris333) Subject: Thelema and Subcultures Date: 23 Aug 1997 11:55:23 -0700 49970806 aa2 Hail Satan! [alot of this text removed as not relevant to public forums] ...I don't think that 'free love' is a very thoroughly understood concept in its rudimentary features. ... I have rarely found them in any community, let alone one dedicated to polyamory, for example. some of my experience [in avoiding 'nasty' social situations], was due to learning to avoid certain types of people who exhibited what I would now call 'danger signs'. these I initially found in the subculture surrounding the recreational use of psychoactives, and I have seen it, as Lainie says below, in many different subculture communities. while I do think that [such nasty social quagmires do arise], I don't think that 1) it can be avoided except through avoiding groups of people who are involved with anything unusual (cultish, taboo, countercultural, etc.), and 2) it describes all of the individuals of any particular social and/or geographical group.... ...I have noticed within religious groups generally and esoteric and/or elitist groups in particular the desire to avoid confrontation. this includes the (c)OTO of which I am a member. when beginning an encounter with my local (SF/Berkeley) Thelemic community, I was an alien shamanic who'd loved the texts of Crowley and was becoming social for discipline purposes. I was treated more like a visiting investigator (which I was) and was very hesitant to get involved with any 'funny' ceremonial activities (I was convinced that they were dangerous, which I still think they are :>) and wanted to study them before allowing them to potentially corrupt my virgin mind. my ...response to the creepier people was that they were the 'dangerous element', the 'wild' from whom I might learn something profound. damned creepy at times, and some of them I think got off on being so (perhaps we all played at this to some degree or another). I was intrigued yet cautious (having had brief investigative expeirences with cults like Scientology, Krishna Consciousness Movement, and brushes with the 'hard drug' culture in my South SF Bay area). the criminal and esoteric weren't therefore entirely unknown to me. I came away, after several years of intermittent involvement, with the impression that, as in many odd groups, there are some weirdos who were worth the exposure and a great many who were not. discerning one from the other was not an easy skill to acquire, but I do think it developed over time. having read a modicum of Crowley's ideas on magick was *extremely* helpful in the Thelemic community. I'd developed my own understanding of them and their application (largely as a philosophy and/or a direct application in the 'mundane world') and was contrasting it as counter to the popular ideologies in our conversations and could discern, through their reaction, how they felt about their own dogma, what kinds of challenges they did and did not like, how much degrees and secrets mattered to them, etc., etc. I would recommend this approach to any esoteric and elitist org: reading up and doing homework prior to becoming involved is very valuable. it is also very valuable to have friends or internal connections going into the venture. I saw that some individuals were absolutely hazards, but there were a number of others within that community who were gems, rare founts of inspiration, artistic genius and subtle and sometimes completely intuitive wisdom. it was to these latter, by my estimation, I would gravitate in my subsequent visits (sometimes of 2-3 days, staying periods at Oz Haus and elsewhere and welcomed by most residents and visitors). in general I recommend against organizations of all sorts, ...especially those which involve secrecy and hierarchy and a connection to 'spirituality' and 'wisdom'. more often than not they can become festering quagmires of feud and vampirism. however, I would add my ...temperance ...by saying that I think there is a definite value in taking particular approaches to such groups, almost a kind of 'glancing trajectory' in which one does not really become totally infused within the social system yet participates in some group affairs (like Masses, which I more often than not enjoyed) and one-on-one talks. in addition I would suggest that avoiding such contact may be one method of avoiding the situation you describe, but that there are other ways of going about it such as more thoroughly learning communication and behavioral cues that indicate early on that such problems underly the social system to which one is being exposed. there are red flags that are available which may well be described in modern communication theory books or those on horrific experiences in cults and power-cabals (some of which I've read just to acquire this kind of innoculation). re amazement at the suggestion "that good people will be drawn into involvement with the Thelemic community if they just meet some of its fine, upstanding members. my experience is that this suggestion is true, but that what people mean by 'fine' and 'upstanding' and how well they are able to assess such qualities varies alot. sources of authority are important, and I think there are some very wonderful exemplars of Thelemic culture who at times have little attention drawn to them on account of their humility and ability to move amongst the feuds without ruffling feathers. ===================================================================== Lainie Petersen: # ...people who are involved in "subcultures" are often there for a # reason: they can't get along anywhere else. my impression was that these subcultures afford the misfits an arena of operation whereby their true nature can be concealed, and especially where occult or mystical secrets are afoot, an easy means of disrupting communication such that their ruse is not discovered until they have achieved their purposes and moved on. this is why one of the more important ways to discern these individuals is by their length of residence or involvement with the local body. hopefully over time the real problems are discovered and removed or ostracized if there is genuine concern for this within the community. in some cases these individuals become the reason for deep divisions into sects within these same communities or the very hub around which a sick community exists. # I have experienced the worst treatment of my life at the hands of # so-called "Thelemites", only rivaled by similar treatment at the hands of # people active in other obscure political/social movements. I'm somewhat confused by this statement. my impression is that with any deep involvement with political and social groups these types of experiences are inevitable unless a very strong and stable community has developed to prevent it (the community being very fluid of communication regarding the really important things like deception and hypocrisy). it may be that 'Thelema' as a culture is, like the Satanist culture or that of Chaos Magicians, more prone to damage fallout on account of the emphasis given to the ego, to the will of the individual, and to freedom in behavior. to a certain extent I think it is *healthy* to emphasize these, yet on the other hand it makes for a more dangerous cultural ground. here at Haus Kaos we have had substance abusers, thieves, and those involved with a host of more seriously problematic behaviors and have chosen to attempt to deal with them with respect while still seeing how much we could salvage of the small community we've developed (sometimes dwindling to two individuals: the Abyss and myself). it hasn't always been easy and at times it was very painful. if we'd had 'rules' or standards of ethics/morality as a kind of litmus test for residence I'm unsure that things would have been different, but we might have had far less honesty in our discussions. as it was those who were causing problems were usually asked to leave eventually, not always with the least amount of pain suffered by those remaining. quite a few residents left *because* of this afforded latitude. # there are fine, decent, competent Thelemites out there, but by golly, I # haven't seen much evidence of "Thelema" influencing their lives for the # better.... such behavior is common amongst most if not all sub-cultures. social groups are by their nature dissolutory of individual integrity. a 'subculture' is merely an intensification of a loose social system which identifies with specific ideas or symbols particular to a greater community (e.g. the Hindu is the greater community of the Krishna Consciousness people). I think that subcultures do provide some value to individuals, however. they can become gathering-nexi for those who are central to the experience and wisdom which is indicated by the social system. there is variety of signal/noise depending upon the particular geography and social make-up, yet often if one looks closely enough there are those to be found (sometimes at the bottom rungs of ladder-orgs, doing the 'dirty work') who exemplify the doctrines, philosophy and/or values around which the group ostensibly congregates. how to go about looking for them and how to find them seem to depend on what one is seeking. ======================================================================== MDNewcomb@aol.com: # ...the type of people you are talking about can really be a piece of # slim ball scum, but they come and go. I think this is definitely an overstatement. some cults which I have investigated, for example, did not just seem to contain the odd individual who qualified for this description, but the qualities seemed common. there is no reason that a group of like-minded shysters and charlatans cannot, as a group, set about deceiving and duping incoming newbies, whether this be in a local group or even something more extensive. in fact I tended to go *into* my encounters with the more exclusivist groups presuming this was the case and watching for real signs either way. I gather that some measure of what (c)OTO admin does, for example, is to watch out for precisely this sort of development in localized groups, and then either rectify it through removing the problem individuals from authority or shutting the whole body down. [...] _______________________________________________________________________________ nigris (333) -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/
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