a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


Thelema and Religion

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,talk.religion.misc,alt.thelema,alt.magick.order,alt.religion.gnostic,talk.religion.newage
From: (nigris (333))
Subject: Thelema and Religion (Ordo Templi Orientis/Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica)
Date: 10 Jul 1997 09:15:18 -0700

49970706 aa2 Hail Satan


maat@IO.COM (CLK):
#Second of all, I can tell your familiarity is slight. A quick
#read of history will verify that the "fusing" of the EGC and
#the OTO was done originally by Theodor Ruess....

actually my familiarity may be a bit more than you think.  the matter
to which I referred was a period of about 5 years between '81 and '86
during which the EGC was considered not only within the OTO but also
a stand-alone organization.  this was accomplished in fear of tax law
problems and rectified when it was determined to be unnecessary.  so
perhaps 'reintegrated' would be more accurate on my part.

#The restrictions you mention concern the performance of the
#Mass _as _an _EGC _ritual....

that is correct and was my point.  interpretation by the individual
for EGC rites has been severely restricted.  I gathered that this was
also Larry's concern as it extended beyond just the Mass (which was
restricted a number of years back).  perhaps you may wish to reread 
his text.   I think it was very clear.

#...Baptism, Confirmation, and Deacon Ordination  all concern entering into 
#a certain specific relationship with the Church. I think it appropriate 
#that they be standardized. 

yes, why?

#>there is a certain amount of security (socially) concerning this stasis,
#>and I gather that Larry was not complaining about this obvious benefit
#>but about the *freedom* which is lost in not being able to have more
#>power and variability as an *individual* doing the rites publically.
#... you or anyone else can do these rites publicly in any
#form you want except:  you can't say you're doing it in nomine
#Ecclecia Gnostica Catholica, unless you are a part of the church,
#preferably a member of the clergy, or working under their supervision,
#direct, or indirect. 

the point was about the power and variability as an *individual within
the Church doing the Church's rites*.  I think it goes without saying
that anybody can do the variations as they choose.  to me that is an
unrelated side-issue -- one that is persistently brought up in response
to complaints about the regularization of the church.  I hope we can
get past it this time.

#>given that Thelema is in essence an individual principle, doesn't this 
#>run contrary to the promulgation of the Law of Thelema and thus 
#>constitute a Twin Head of static religion (ecclesia) to that of static 
#>initiation (mysteria)?

#I don't think so. An individual doesn't have to
#join the Church, or any church. We don't baptize and confirm
#anyone who doesn't seek out these rituals. Same with
#the initiatory path.

I know I'm making the point very badly, with all my ignorant errors and
what must sound to you to be insults (really not my intent so much as a
strong argument against churches as promulgators of the Law), but what I
recently read during a Jungian study may help us out some.  the first
pertains to religion and the second to 'conventionality' and individuation.
my questions relate directly to this within the Thelemic community as a whole:

	The development of a religious tradition depends upon the personal
	religious experience of some individual who is able to put the
	experience in such form as to attract others to the vision as a
	true reflection of an unseen reality.  An archetypal image that
	manifests in the life of an individual, if sufficiently integrated
	and presented to others, accumulates about itself the religious
	practice of persons in collective consciousness.  The archetypal
	experience gains a "body" of imagery and dogma and is embedded in
	a religious tradition.  While this preserves the archetypal
	experience, it also sets it against any future new and perhaps
	more profound embodiment of that archetype, or of other archetypes.
	_The Jungian Experience_, by James. A. Hall, M.D., Inner 
		City Books, 1986; pp. 140-1.

the point I'm attempting to substantiate is that 'promulgation of the Law'
necessarily includes the *inspiration* of the individuation process as was
described by Jung and others.  religion appears to be a BARRIER to this
in those who come to the religious practice accepting the conventionalities
of its internal construction.

rather than merely promoting the nihilistic tendencies of the Satanist
culture in its anti-religious and/or atheistic rhetoric, I'm trying to
bring forward serious argument against regularization of religious rites
within an organization supposedly promulgating the Law of the Thelema.

the above paragraph could be applied to this conversation as it relates
to the experience Crowley (Gnostic Mass) or Tau Apiryon have had and to
which they have given expression within the current EGC rituals.  that
these can function as social grease is a given.  the concern is whether
or not such a standardization poses as an OBSTACLE to the liberation of
individuals by virtue of suchregularization.  I'll try to say this in
many different ways to get my point across.

re: the development of personality (or 'soul'; part of the maturation 
    process for *adults*, and something rarely inspired by religions):

	With the decision to put his way above all other possible ways
	he has already fulfilled the greater part of his vocation as a
	redeemer.  He has invalidated all other ways for himself,
	exalting his law above convention and thus making a clean sweep
	of all those things that not only failed to prevent the great
	danger but actually accelerated it.  For conventions themselves
	are soulless mechanisms that can never understand more than the
	mere routine of life.  Creative life always stands outside
	convention.  That is why when the mere routine of life
	predominates in the form of convention and tradition, there is
	bound to be a destructive outbreak of creative energy.  This
	outbreak is a catastrophe only when it is a mass phenomenon,
	but never in the individual who consciously submits to these
	higher powers and serves them with all his strength.  The
	mechanism of convention keeps people unconscious, for in that
	state they can follow their accustomed tracks like blind brutes,
	without the need for conscious decision.  This unintended result
	of even the best convention is unavoidable but is no less a
	terrible danger for that.  For when new conditions arise that
	are not provided for under the old conventions, then, just as
	with animals, panic is liable to break out among human beings
	kept unconscious by routine, and with equally unpredictable 
	quoted from Jung's Collected Works in _The Essential Jung_,
	  ed. by Athony Storr, Priniceton University Press, 
	  1983; pp. 202-3.

now in part why I quote from Jung is that he was by my estimations a
Gnostic, and yet his attitude towards deities and religion appears to 
be slightly different than whatever may be called the 'norm' in Gnostic
culture.  he seems to value the mysteries for their liberative quality
and talks of 'the herd' and the 'brutes' of sleeping society like the
best of the Nietzscheans.

as regularization and cultural expansion cement these into conventions,
how will the EGC continue to seriously put the Law of Thelema into
effect through public announcement if its policies and practices begin
to stand as obstacles to human development by becoming conventions?

#>where stasis is valuable as regards initiation schema that promote the
#>liberation of the individual, can this also be said regarding the
#>principles of religion (esp. where authority and prominence are
#>associated with the religious hierarchy)?
#Authority and prominence, huh? I think of 
#humility and service more than those two "rewards".
#Serving the church is bhakti yoga, IMO.

rather than the clergy, I am speaking of the congregation and, over time, 
what seems to consistently develop surrounding churches.  I tend to think 
that today's conventional religions may well have started out with some 
liberal ideas behind them, yet through the years these may have been twisted 
by virtue of regularization and re-application toward different purposes than 
was initially effective.

#>there is yet a question as to what 'promulgating the Law' really means and
#>whether this can truly be done through religion.

#You promulgate your way, I'll promulgate mine.

#I have nothing but respect for anyone that gains an inkling of their true 
#nature then works to actualize it.

is this all there is to promulgating the Law?  acting according to it, as you
have described, makes a great deal of sense to me and I support you in your
activities.  my point isn't that you should stop what you are doing but I
ask how far we need go and into what traps we may be led by our endeavors.
doesn't the term 'promulgate' mean more than simply acting according to it
or indeed imply more than simply an announcement?  when does it become an
hypocrisy?  the issue seems to turns on to what various 'ways' lead: results.

#>the Masses I loved most were irregular, creative, and experimental.  
#Experiment away!....

that isn't my point.  I was saying that I appreciated that the *EGC* allowed
such variety in their rites.  now this is apparently not possible. do not have to be an initiate to be baptised and confirmed into the 
#EGC. Membership in the EGC confers membership in the OTO. Just, not 
#initiate membership. 

my point was about Priest/ess'ing and Deaconing and Bishoping and Popeing(sp?).

#>a number of years back as the EGC was fused with the OTO the degree system 
#>was standardized along with correspondent ecclesiastical position.  you 
#>have to be a IX' in order to be a Bishop now, for example.  I got the 
#>impression that the other Church roles had their own minimum requirements.

#I see. You just lack information. Why don't you go to
# and look for the link to E.G.C.

thanks for the reference.  I would in turn suggest that you consult a few
of the files at the Hollyfield written by Brother Bill on the history of
the EGC.  my terms may have been slightly off, but my memory wasn't *that*
hazy.  the standardization took place in '86 or so according to my recent
review of the files I just mentioned.

#1)As I mentioned earlier, EGC was made a part of OTO by Ruess. Crowley 
#wrote the Gnostic Mass in 1917, and Ruess thought it would make a 
#dandy 'central ritual'.

neato.  then it was changed in '81 or so and changed back in '86 I guess.

#3) You DO have to be an initiate to be a member of the Clergy.

that was my entire point, yes as far as standardization, yes.

#>what this does is define a religious authority in identity to Order
#>administration.  that is why the 'King' of the Order is the 'Pope' of the
#>EGC, and is something which has always concerned me. 

#>while it may look
#>honky-dory to you and the various involved members of the EGC 

#EGC membership is confirmed by, well, confirmation.

sorry, clergy status.  members of the church hierarchy.

#>may benefit from looking at the history of religion and how these things 
#>change over time.  the history of Europe and the authority which some people
#>seem to want to give their priests, bishops and popes is astounding.

#...This is the responsibility of the practioners. And
#in this case, also the responsibility of the "people". 

it is not the responsibility of the people to promulgate the Law of Thelema.
this responsibility rests with the OTO-EGC by its own internal edicts as I
understand it.  my question to you and any others who support this
ecclesiastical consolidation is in what way does this serve this Law where
deregulation and localized, more variable riteforms might serve as a more
Thelemic example?

#As you note, they bought into the 'fact' that their clergy were
#authority figures. 

with good reason.  providing certain licensed social roles within a
traditional religious structure seems to lead to this very quickly.

#>the question I'd ask anyone who favors this fusion, authority cementation,
#>adherence to civil law by virtue of incorporation as religious entity,
#>and regularization of religious rites, is how do you feel that ANY of it
#>supports the promulgation of the Law of Thelema?

#In many ways. Our Church is a haven of love. Our congregation really
#does offer "knowledge, fellowship, and sanctuary". We are in process
#with our wills. We offer a living example, if anyone wants to look
#at it. But we WON'T be chasing anyone down to MAKE them do so.

that's great as long as it lasts.  the problem I've seen happen within a
variety of Western religious systems is that the people change over the
millenium and the whole thing rots from the inside by virtue of being
protected against healthy changes.

#>what do you *mean* by this Law that such an ossification and dispersion 
#>of innovation and malleability
#I don't see it that way, in case you haven't gathered...

within the official rites?  it can hardly be denied.

#>could be of *benefit to the Thelemite*, not just the slaves
#>who need to suckle on the teat of Mama Church??
#...but since you do, it's a mystery you'll have to wonder about...

I guess that means you don't have a response.  ok.

#>#...There's lots of ways to promulgate the Law. 
#>are there?  please list a few and explain why and how you feel that they 
#Talk about your gratuitous questions....
#you have a certain talent for them.

I'm trying to get a sense of what you and others, some who seem to think of
Thelema as 'a religion', mean by the phrase 'promulgate the Law of Thelema'.
it can be dressed up in all kinds of fancy clothes.  but what really gives
it a sincerety of application?  

#>do organizations run contrary to individual liberties as you 
#>see it, or are there certain characteristics about an org which serve 
#>the individual in some fashion?
#Whoa, here it comes again! Depends on the organization. 

which characteristics of your particular organization (EGC) serve the
individual in their maturation beyond needing the church to do things
for them?

#>so why not fuse the OTO with the Roman Catholic Church instead?  really,
#>what is the difference between the two?

#Redemption and original sin. We don't feature them, the RC church is 
#based on them.... 

thank you for your patience with me on this point.  so you don't think that
positive authority-traps like 'gnosis' will get in the way somehow?  that
is, that the ecclesiastical structure of the church will somehow be
identified as a dispensatory tool for the product of 'gnosis'?  what about
the Universal Medicine or Mystery of which you mentioned?  you don't think
this may become a kind of con-game?

#Furthermore, our "people" don't require the intervention
#of the clergy to get them in good with God, so to speak.

Protestant, I guess, by Christian standards.

#>yes, let's get into this deeply.  why is duty a part of Thelema?  why
#>isn't our only duty to ourselves and beyond this a sacred gift of love?
#Because we incarnated in the company of others to
#which I believe we are deeply connected.
#"Here's a riddle for you:  Are you one, individual, and alone, 
#a separate entity with a distinct identity, or are you an 
#individuated part of a greater whole, perhaps the collective 
#unconcious of humankind?  

I am alone.  there is no God where I am.

#Which body is your body?  The one with the voice that echoes "I am alone, 
#and there is no God where I am," or the body of Nuit?  

the former.

#Do you choose to ally yourself with the camp that suggests that there is 
#a radical division between the few and the secret and the many and the 
#known, and you'd best be one of the former, thank you very much;  or are 
#you hanging closer to some version of the Boddhisattva Vow, which implies 
#that no one's home till the last one hits the door. That even after 
#achieving personal enlightenment you would willingly continue the cycle 
#of incarnation in order to be a light and a signpost to those who are 
#still working to achieve enlightenment. Well, well, choose ye well.

few and known, enlightenment is over-rated.  incarnation is misunderstood
and a trap to the deluded.  the choice you offer is over-limited.

#	A primary and evident truth to this magician is that it's all 
#false, all the time.  And it's all true, all the time. You decide for 
#you, because time is, ye fools.  

making a mockery of knowledge and a potential shinanigans of religion.

#The true gate of personal sovereignty is the realization that a magician 
#must ultimately be self-referential and self-validating.  That's strong 
#medicine, doled out daily. After that spoonful, one can ponder where the 
#edges of 'the self' lie."

dunno who you were quoting, but I agree with this paragraph strongly and
think the edges of the self are everywhere so much as that the self is
of illusory constancy and dependent upon the process of identification.

#>what does formalizing relationships as responsibility do to their nature?
#Meditate on it. Try it and see.

I was asking you.  I have my own experience and preferences obviously.

#>why isn't it our duty to ignore those with whom we have no interest and
#>let them perish or survive based on their strength and placement of birth?
#Then come to your own conclusions. 

that's not an answer.

#>also, I have come to accept as rational many Satanic principles of the
#>destruction of religion such as this except as regards certain services
#>to which you may be alluding (counselor, for example). 

#What would make you trust one person more than another in this regard, 
#I wonder? 

shared experience and values.

#If you needed a 'counselor', would you get on the bus and talk it out 
#with the person next to you as readily as someone you had determined 
#was skilled at 'counseling'?  

no, recently the Abyss and I decided to see a reliationship counsellor.
she got recommendations from some friends, eventually we decided to go
to one who had experience with our unique difficulties.  as I said, I
see a value in this particular skill and its formalization.  also they
are not pledged to promulgate the Law, so we have to interview and
select wisely.

#...Thelemites don't 'require' Priestesses, right? But sometimes they 
#are useful.

I have never suggested otherwise.

#>and if you are going to enter into this manner of activity I would ask
#>you to define rather clearly any presupposed morals you will be
#>promoting regarding decisions associated with politic, such as that of
#>abortion, generation (procreative?  anticreative?), private, consensual
#>adult interaction, etc.
#Nothing about my job gives me any authority to determine the
#things you have mentioned for another. Why would you possibly
#think it did???????????

promotion is much different than determination.

#>so far I have heard a distinct *lack* of
#>definition where this is concerned on the part of the (c)OTO/EGC Officials,
#And the above sentence should clarify it for you.

no it did not.

#>Counselor of the Law ought to be able to exposit on these subjects even 
#>if it is to say that there is no regulation (YET) as to what may be 
#>recommended.  suicide?  is this 'Thelemic' by EGC standards? 
#It's Thelemic by my standards. I don't believe the EGC
#has made policy on it, or much else, concerning people's
#individual will. And I don't expect one soon. It's dealt
#with in Liber Oz.

if the EGC does make a policy on it, formalizing its moral standards,
will this still be a 'Thelemic' operation by your assessment?  how far
can it go before you see there might be a problem?

#>if an EGC member asked you to assist in such a suicide what do you 
#>think your response would be? 
#It would be between me and that individual, wouldn't it?

I hope so.  at present the rituals aren't between you and another
individual.  no telling when the morals will become regularized too.

#>#The Church is not a toy. People depend on it, get invested in it.
#>is this something to be ENCOURAGED?  is it possible this is a DISEASE?
#I see it working, and no, I don't think it is a disease.

working toward what?

#>what is the return as you see it?  pacification?  somnambulance?
#Community. It's working for many of us in this
#Valley. You're having a different experience it
#would seem. So it goes. Thou hast no right but
#to do thy will.

is community more important than Thelema?  is the latter worth sacrificing
for the benefits of a social grease?

nigris (333) -- --


49970709 aa2 Hail Satan!


maat@IO.COM (C.L.K.):
#The Church is growing, and it requires a solid foundation
#to accommodate the people who are coming to it....

such is a general conclusion with which I think we all agree, with differing
valuation as to the nature and function of religion.

#>#>the question I'd ask anyone who favors this fusion, authority cementation,
#>#>adherence to civil law by virtue of incorporation as religious entity,
#>#>and regularization of religious rites, is how do you feel that ANY of it
#>#>supports the promulgation of the Law of Thelema?

#I believe that a building a firm foundation supports a strong building.

there is no dispute of this of which I am aware.

#Establishing a framework does not disallow improvisation.

of course it does. it disallows improvisation where this framework has
been established. ignoring the restricive nature of discipline is an
error which in some measure I aim to rectify. the issue isn't so much
whether there is discipline, but where the line should be drawn.

#The organization is a flagpole. Thelema is a flag.
#It is certainly a way to promulgate the Law.
#It's a paradox, isn't it?

paradox? I don't think so, but I do think that there are variations of
degree with respect to this promulgation, and that demonstration and
example as regards individual genius and allowance for this within the
official liturgical framework are as much a means of promulgation as is
consolidation of a skeleton for the body of religious.

#>#how does orthodoxy promote individualism?

#If you define orthodoxy as a state where no innovation is permitted and
#all is static, then I don't believe you have a lot to worry about.

straw man. the question is not whether it is now restrictive to nil but
whether restriction serves and, if so, how far it should be taken in
the presumed promulgation (appears to be a declarative, though I have
been arguing that actions are declarations as much as words) of the Law.

if Thelema is relegated to the status of a flag, will it be seriously
understood or believed? if the edifice which flies it does not appear to
demonstrate or rely upon it, does this not compromise its integrity?

what is being asked in analogy is how much skeleton is sufficient to
construct the body and when does it become an exoskeletal chastity-belt
that damages the potential development of genius amongst the flock.

nigris (333) -- --

49970708 aa2 Hail Satan!


#>the aversion to woman as whore appears to be fairly pervasive within
#>conservative Western society, not just involving men.  more on that below. (Michelle Catlett-Tetzlaff)
#...I have no such aversion to Whoredom.  

of course, but most within the Thelemic culture couldn't be classified as
residing within 'conservative Western society'.

#...What do you mean, not just involving men?  

I mean that it isn't just men in that conservative society who retain that
aversion.  the women appear to be averse to it too.

#...we need _all_ the archtypes, not just one or two.

with this I substantially agree.  there may be some who do not by virtue
of direct experience, having resolved the unconscious somehow.  admittedly
these may be rare.

#>if the Mass is so unbalanced, how is it valuable?  is there reason to
#>suggest it is part of a "men's mysteries" emphasis which does not address
#>lasting parity toward a rounded individual development?

#I see it as valuable, despite its verbal imbalances, because the current
#which I feel is relatively balanced.  I suspect it has to do with the
#individual approaches of the priest and priestess more than the general

#And the observer/participant, too: as communicant and as deacon I've so far
#tended to the perhaps limited perspective that the Mass is all happening
#within me; when I yearn to Nuit it is me I'm calling for.

#Why, do you see the Mass as a 'men's mystery' involvment?

I'd got the impression that 'Mass' was idealistically a unification of
complementaries in relative parity of power and position.  as has been
objected, the current form of the EGC Gnostic Mass can be criticized on
the basis of its language and its priestess role.  I'm not sure what
your comment on 'current' might be except that the inherent imbalance
somehow suits you, catalyzes psychospiritual processes you enjoy.  this
could also be said for the Roman Catholic Mass and its effect for those
who enjoy it.

if the criticism about the priestess as sex object and/or ritual furniture
has substance, then one line of inquiry is whether it serves men by virtue
of symbolizing their role with respect to some feminine entity or symbol,
or if it serves women as an internal masculine reflection of personal
unconscious contents -- say, maybe women are taught to see *themselves* as
such object and furniture (which strikes me as accurate) and so their
projection of these into ritual circumstances compares favorably with the
Mass as it stands.  I'm sure there are other possibilities.

#...The dichotomy between  the empowering freedom of
#Thelema - the law for all, and the disrespect to half of us deities of
#*keeping* the rite in a format that does not allow the full expression of
#the female role.  But in all the clamour about it, I sniff change in the
#air - maybe this is simple minded optimism, but in my hope for the
#promulgation of the Law, I believe it will change.  I see that too many
#people know it has to change to survive.  I don't have any objection to
#that change happening slowly or cautiously, as long as I see it happening.

might there be disadvantages to that change happening slowly, or advantages
to continuing something that cements men or women into very limited roles?  
isn't this one of the criticisms by Protestants of the RCC on account of 
its exclusion of women in power and centrality to the church?

#>if the case then perhaps
#>those who had first been acculturated without rebelling may be the best
#>participants (i.e. those who were sheep and rounded themselves out on the
#>comparative goat-path).  the real danger is when the sheep begin to grow in
#>the comparison as a type of fundamentalism.  then the only way out for them
#>will be conversion to the 'Old Aeon' comparables....
#>am headed (:>).

#...You're talking sheep either becoming goats by following goat-paths, or 
#making more fundie sheep, in which case your goats convert to what? 
#Osirian age christians?  Or?  You've lost me among the alpine flowers.

if Thelema represents goats (which I think it used to until it became 
associated with religion) and 'Christianity' represents sheep (this is an
admittedly facile model), then perhaps those most to benefit from Thelema,
if it is to be so unbalanced, are those who first were Christians.  those
who grow UP in the religion called 'Thelema' may, by virtue of its growing
fundamentalism, really be Christians in the sense of being sheep within a
different mythological paradigm.  

these Christian 'Thelemites' may have to convert to the Christian religion 
in order to round out their development, becoming goats to the religion of 
Thelema.  one might also utilize a model constructed of temperatures of 
water (cold/hot water and Christianity/Thelema and sheep/goats).  to round 
out development one might need to spend time within each temperature pool 
rather than remaining in one for life.

#>#I see the value in Babalon/Nuit identity, but Her aspects are relatively
#>#undeveloped compared to the Beast or Hadit or Horus.

#>I'll make a stab at the evils these represent.  Beast --> cf. 'Beauty and
#>the Beast'; one of my hausmates says that this is clearly a tale of how
#>the male in het-sexuality is seen by the developing female; of or pertaining
#>to qualities of unrefinement, 'barbarians', or a lack of acculturation;
#>the dangerous id of Freud, perhaps the Shadow or Animus of Jung.

#I watched my own dream-animus develop from beast to man as my perspective
#gradually became more balanced.  That beast man metaphor runs deep in our
#culture, but why can't it be acknowledgment of human animal-ness, rather
#than an 'evil'?  Men have beast-men imagery as well as women, and like a
#woman embracing one or another archetype to incorporate it into her being,
#I know men who have done the same with Beast or Horned God.  Archetypes are
#archetypes - they exist, what would be so evil about that?  Or am I leaping
#at a casually used word.

I was pointing toward the extremity which these archetypes may be designed to
diffuse, carefully constructed complements to the upbringing which Crowley
and those who added to and perpetuated his text were provided.  they are
'evils' only within the naive perspective.  they are expanded and fleshed out
by those who repeatedly engage them in ritual. 

thus I was attempting to describe why it was that the Babalon/Nuit/Scarlet
Woman/Whore batch might not yet be fleshed out.  it may *synch* into the
upbringing rather than act as a catalyst toward experiencing its converse.
putting the priestess up on the altar may effectively render her inaccessible
to the grappling (largely male) psyche.

whereas the masculine archetypes of condemnation in conservative culture are
exposed for their incompleteness and provided clothing and a pleasant mix of
positive and negative components, it may take feminist writers/artists to
exposit the details of the liberated Whore (I see some of this happening in
this elist during the discussion of the haetera).  as regards the Gnostic
Mass, to be effective for men in rounding these out it may take *reversing*
the roles or substantially changing the dynamics between priest and priestess
in order to initiate and preserve the momentum of infusing the priestess and
all she represents with more power and significance than as mother and sex
(compare the parallel development beyond 'Maiden/Mother/Crone' in Wicca).
in this sense the Beast was an old archetype successfully integrated into the
Christian tradition through the back door of the Patmos Revelation.  it takes
originating or identifying as a Christian to synch the favor of 'the Messiah',
identifying as the Beast to ground the exaltation of 'the Godhead', and coming
to understand the Hadit of one's genius, one's true will and center, before
being able to end an obsession with the altruistic social role of the Savior
and engaging psychospiritual maturation.

#>Hadit --> cf. Jung's 'personality'; the star shining forth in individual
#>splendor; this is dangerous to the group as it threatens to occlude or
#>subsume its energies to the projects and persona of the star (perhaps as
#>Aleister Crowley did with (c)OTO and the EGC); it is dangerous to sheep
#>in that it puts into shadow their meager efforts and disrupts the herd.
#What do you mean?  Hadit as a reflection of AC's star?  But aren't all of
#the thelemite gods - at least their written imagery - reflections of AC's
#personal relationships, since what we read, until we form our own
#relationships with these deities, is AC's perspective?  

I'd thought they were much more than this, or could be interpreted as such.
one may very well identify them completely with the AC psyche, and yet their
*religious* value, implied by their placement within the Thelemic religion,
are as archetypes for commonly shared experiences or the possibility of
sharing them.  beyond what I've said about Hadit above, it seems to me that
he may be seen as the personification of every innate consciousness-point,
and that this is seldom given emphasis within religious establishments as
they have come down to us, the individual forgotten for the gods.

#...I want to see multifaceted relationships with the thelemite deities, 
#not just AC's.  A collection of writings on thelemic deities written by 
#everyone _but_ Crowley.

this strikes me as something along the lines which Tim the Wizard has been
suggesting and with which I agree -- original scripture or inspired writing 
by Thelemites for Thelemites, rather than regurgitated Crowley and the
condemnation of 'competitors'.  while I agree that this would prove quite
valuable, it is possible that the reason this is not happening (where it 
isn't) is that the Crowleyan (i.e. Satanic) particulars are still 
considered to be of value in the religious administration (perhaps being 
fond of women-as-furniture :>) and those who are editing popular journals 
may still find value in obsessing over the dead skin of their prophet.

in part this is why I feel it valuable to oppose religious norms so
strongly, as they may perpetuate outworn structures and concepts beyond
their utility, within and outside ritual.  then again, it is quite possible 
that these orgs and authorities have a *very* broad aim and are trying to 
serve the bulk of humanity (which in the US is largely Christian) as a 
Satanic counterforce through the continued perpetuation of Crowley's writ.  

it makes sense that those who, meditating upon Crowley's text, would find 
it unbalanced and move on to more expansive practice, yet the bulk of the
Thelemic culture may be slow in catching on.  Crowleyan extremity may short
out hazardous circuits slowly, or the Old Aeonic patterns may be so deeply
ingrained that it takes a long time for their complements to seep into the
religious mind.

I'm attempting to shift the discussion from a simply linear and absolute 
consideration of the effectiveness of the Mass and religious archetypes and
instead to propose a polar relationship they may have with the religious --
one which may make regularization a serious and dangerous enterprise.

nigris (333) -- --

     (emailed replies may be posted)  -------  join the AMT syncretism!!!
   see  ----------        call: 408/2-666-SLUG!!
        "sa avidya ya vimuktaye" -- "that which liberates is ignorance"

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races