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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,talk.religion.misc,alt.thelema,alt.magick.order,alt.religion.gnostic,talk.religion.newage From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333)) Subject: Thelema and Religion (Ordo Templi Orientis/Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica) Date: 10 Jul 1997 09:15:18 -0700 49970706 aa2 Hail Satan E6 maat@IO.COM (CLK): #Second of all, I can tell your familiarity is slight. A quick #read of history will verify that the "fusing" of the EGC and #the OTO was done originally by Theodor Ruess.... actually my familiarity may be a bit more than you think. the matter to which I referred was a period of about 5 years between '81 and '86 during which the EGC was considered not only within the OTO but also a stand-alone organization. this was accomplished in fear of tax law problems and rectified when it was determined to be unnecessary. so perhaps 'reintegrated' would be more accurate on my part. #The restrictions you mention concern the performance of the #Mass _as _an _EGC _ritual.... that is correct and was my point. interpretation by the individual for EGC rites has been severely restricted. I gathered that this was also Larry's concern as it extended beyond just the Mass (which was restricted a number of years back). perhaps you may wish to reread his text. I think it was very clear. #...Baptism, Confirmation, and Deacon Ordination all concern entering into #a certain specific relationship with the Church. I think it appropriate #that they be standardized. yes, why? #>there is a certain amount of security (socially) concerning this stasis, #>and I gather that Larry was not complaining about this obvious benefit #>but about the *freedom* which is lost in not being able to have more #>power and variability as an *individual* doing the rites publically. # #... you or anyone else can do these rites publicly in any #form you want except: you can't say you're doing it in nomine #Ecclecia Gnostica Catholica, unless you are a part of the church, #preferably a member of the clergy, or working under their supervision, #direct, or indirect. the point was about the power and variability as an *individual within the Church doing the Church's rites*. I think it goes without saying that anybody can do the variations as they choose. to me that is an unrelated side-issue -- one that is persistently brought up in response to complaints about the regularization of the church. I hope we can get past it this time. #>given that Thelema is in essence an individual principle, doesn't this #>run contrary to the promulgation of the Law of Thelema and thus #>constitute a Twin Head of static religion (ecclesia) to that of static #>initiation (mysteria)? #I don't think so. An individual doesn't have to #join the Church, or any church. We don't baptize and confirm #anyone who doesn't seek out these rituals. Same with #the initiatory path. I know I'm making the point very badly, with all my ignorant errors and what must sound to you to be insults (really not my intent so much as a strong argument against churches as promulgators of the Law), but what I recently read during a Jungian study may help us out some. the first pertains to religion and the second to 'conventionality' and individuation. my questions relate directly to this within the Thelemic community as a whole: The development of a religious tradition depends upon the personal religious experience of some individual who is able to put the experience in such form as to attract others to the vision as a true reflection of an unseen reality. An archetypal image that manifests in the life of an individual, if sufficiently integrated and presented to others, accumulates about itself the religious practice of persons in collective consciousness. The archetypal experience gains a "body" of imagery and dogma and is embedded in a religious tradition. While this preserves the archetypal experience, it also sets it against any future new and perhaps more profound embodiment of that archetype, or of other archetypes. --------------------------------------------------------- _The Jungian Experience_, by James. A. Hall, M.D., Inner City Books, 1986; pp. 140-1. _________________________________________________________ the point I'm attempting to substantiate is that 'promulgation of the Law' necessarily includes the *inspiration* of the individuation process as was described by Jung and others. religion appears to be a BARRIER to this in those who come to the religious practice accepting the conventionalities of its internal construction. rather than merely promoting the nihilistic tendencies of the Satanist culture in its anti-religious and/or atheistic rhetoric, I'm trying to bring forward serious argument against regularization of religious rites within an organization supposedly promulgating the Law of the Thelema. the above paragraph could be applied to this conversation as it relates to the experience Crowley (Gnostic Mass) or Tau Apiryon have had and to which they have given expression within the current EGC rituals. that these can function as social grease is a given. the concern is whether or not such a standardization poses as an OBSTACLE to the liberation of individuals by virtue of suchregularization. I'll try to say this in many different ways to get my point across. re: the development of personality (or 'soul'; part of the maturation process for *adults*, and something rarely inspired by religions): With the decision to put his way above all other possible ways he has already fulfilled the greater part of his vocation as a redeemer. He has invalidated all other ways for himself, exalting his law above convention and thus making a clean sweep of all those things that not only failed to prevent the great danger but actually accelerated it. For conventions themselves are soulless mechanisms that can never understand more than the mere routine of life. Creative life always stands outside convention. That is why when the mere routine of life predominates in the form of convention and tradition, there is bound to be a destructive outbreak of creative energy. This outbreak is a catastrophe only when it is a mass phenomenon, but never in the individual who consciously submits to these higher powers and serves them with all his strength. The mechanism of convention keeps people unconscious, for in that state they can follow their accustomed tracks like blind brutes, without the need for conscious decision. This unintended result of even the best convention is unavoidable but is no less a terrible danger for that. For when new conditions arise that are not provided for under the old conventions, then, just as with animals, panic is liable to break out among human beings kept unconscious by routine, and with equally unpredictable results. ----------------------------------------------------------- quoted from Jung's Collected Works in _The Essential Jung_, ed. by Athony Storr, Priniceton University Press, 1983; pp. 202-3. ___________________________________________________________ now in part why I quote from Jung is that he was by my estimations a Gnostic, and yet his attitude towards deities and religion appears to be slightly different than whatever may be called the 'norm' in Gnostic culture. he seems to value the mysteries for their liberative quality and talks of 'the herd' and the 'brutes' of sleeping society like the best of the Nietzscheans. as regularization and cultural expansion cement these into conventions, how will the EGC continue to seriously put the Law of Thelema into effect through public announcement if its policies and practices begin to stand as obstacles to human development by becoming conventions? #>where stasis is valuable as regards initiation schema that promote the #>liberation of the individual, can this also be said regarding the #>principles of religion (esp. where authority and prominence are #>associated with the religious hierarchy)? # #Authority and prominence, huh? I think of #humility and service more than those two "rewards". #Serving the church is bhakti yoga, IMO. rather than the clergy, I am speaking of the congregation and, over time, what seems to consistently develop surrounding churches. I tend to think that today's conventional religions may well have started out with some liberal ideas behind them, yet through the years these may have been twisted by virtue of regularization and re-application toward different purposes than was initially effective. #>there is yet a question as to what 'promulgating the Law' really means and #>whether this can truly be done through religion. #You promulgate your way, I'll promulgate mine. #I have nothing but respect for anyone that gains an inkling of their true #nature then works to actualize it. is this all there is to promulgating the Law? acting according to it, as you have described, makes a great deal of sense to me and I support you in your activities. my point isn't that you should stop what you are doing but I ask how far we need go and into what traps we may be led by our endeavors. doesn't the term 'promulgate' mean more than simply acting according to it or indeed imply more than simply an announcement? when does it become an hypocrisy? the issue seems to turns on to what various 'ways' lead: results. #>the Masses I loved most were irregular, creative, and experimental. # #Experiment away!.... that isn't my point. I was saying that I appreciated that the *EGC* allowed such variety in their rites. now this is apparently not possible. #...you do not have to be an initiate to be baptised and confirmed into the #EGC. Membership in the EGC confers membership in the OTO. Just, not #initiate membership. my point was about Priest/ess'ing and Deaconing and Bishoping and Popeing(sp?). #>a number of years back as the EGC was fused with the OTO the degree system #>was standardized along with correspondent ecclesiastical position. you #>have to be a IX' in order to be a Bishop now, for example. I got the #>impression that the other Church roles had their own minimum requirements. #I see. You just lack information. Why don't you go to #http://www.otohq.org/ and look for the link to E.G.C. thanks for the reference. I would in turn suggest that you consult a few of the files at the Hollyfield written by Brother Bill on the history of the EGC. my terms may have been slightly off, but my memory wasn't *that* hazy. the standardization took place in '86 or so according to my recent review of the files I just mentioned. #1)As I mentioned earlier, EGC was made a part of OTO by Ruess. Crowley #wrote the Gnostic Mass in 1917, and Ruess thought it would make a #dandy 'central ritual'. neato. then it was changed in '81 or so and changed back in '86 I guess. #3) You DO have to be an initiate to be a member of the Clergy. that was my entire point, yes as far as standardization, yes. #>what this does is define a religious authority in identity to Order #>administration. that is why the 'King' of the Order is the 'Pope' of the #>EGC, and is something which has always concerned me. #>while it may look #>honky-dory to you and the various involved members of the EGC #EGC membership is confirmed by, well, confirmation. sorry, clergy status. members of the church hierarchy. #>we #>may benefit from looking at the history of religion and how these things #>change over time. the history of Europe and the authority which some people #>seem to want to give their priests, bishops and popes is astounding. #...This is the responsibility of the practioners. And #in this case, also the responsibility of the "people". it is not the responsibility of the people to promulgate the Law of Thelema. this responsibility rests with the OTO-EGC by its own internal edicts as I understand it. my question to you and any others who support this ecclesiastical consolidation is in what way does this serve this Law where deregulation and localized, more variable riteforms might serve as a more Thelemic example? #As you note, they bought into the 'fact' that their clergy were #authority figures. with good reason. providing certain licensed social roles within a traditional religious structure seems to lead to this very quickly. #>the question I'd ask anyone who favors this fusion, authority cementation, #>adherence to civil law by virtue of incorporation as religious entity, #>and regularization of religious rites, is how do you feel that ANY of it #>supports the promulgation of the Law of Thelema? #In many ways. Our Church is a haven of love. Our congregation really #does offer "knowledge, fellowship, and sanctuary". We are in process #with our wills. We offer a living example, if anyone wants to look #at it. But we WON'T be chasing anyone down to MAKE them do so. that's great as long as it lasts. the problem I've seen happen within a variety of Western religious systems is that the people change over the millenium and the whole thing rots from the inside by virtue of being protected against healthy changes. #>what do you *mean* by this Law that such an ossification and dispersion #>of innovation and malleability # #I don't see it that way, in case you haven't gathered... within the official rites? it can hardly be denied. #>could be of *benefit to the Thelemite*, not just the slaves #>who need to suckle on the teat of Mama Church?? # #...but since you do, it's a mystery you'll have to wonder about... I guess that means you don't have a response. ok. #>#...There's lots of ways to promulgate the Law. #> #>are there? please list a few and explain why and how you feel that they #>succeed. # #Talk about your gratuitous questions.... #you have a certain talent for them. I'm trying to get a sense of what you and others, some who seem to think of Thelema as 'a religion', mean by the phrase 'promulgate the Law of Thelema'. it can be dressed up in all kinds of fancy clothes. but what really gives it a sincerety of application? #>do organizations run contrary to individual liberties as you #>see it, or are there certain characteristics about an org which serve #>the individual in some fashion? # #Whoa, here it comes again! Depends on the organization. which characteristics of your particular organization (EGC) serve the individual in their maturation beyond needing the church to do things for them? #>so why not fuse the OTO with the Roman Catholic Church instead? really, #>what is the difference between the two? #Redemption and original sin. We don't feature them, the RC church is #based on them.... thank you for your patience with me on this point. so you don't think that positive authority-traps like 'gnosis' will get in the way somehow? that is, that the ecclesiastical structure of the church will somehow be identified as a dispensatory tool for the product of 'gnosis'? what about the Universal Medicine or Mystery of which you mentioned? you don't think this may become a kind of con-game? #Furthermore, our "people" don't require the intervention #of the clergy to get them in good with God, so to speak. Protestant, I guess, by Christian standards. #>yes, let's get into this deeply. why is duty a part of Thelema? why #>isn't our only duty to ourselves and beyond this a sacred gift of love? # #Because we incarnated in the company of others to #which I believe we are deeply connected. # #"Here's a riddle for you: Are you one, individual, and alone, #a separate entity with a distinct identity, or are you an #individuated part of a greater whole, perhaps the collective #unconcious of humankind? I am alone. there is no God where I am. #Which body is your body? The one with the voice that echoes "I am alone, #and there is no God where I am," or the body of Nuit? the former. #Do you choose to ally yourself with the camp that suggests that there is #a radical division between the few and the secret and the many and the #known, and you'd best be one of the former, thank you very much; or are #you hanging closer to some version of the Boddhisattva Vow, which implies #that no one's home till the last one hits the door. That even after #achieving personal enlightenment you would willingly continue the cycle #of incarnation in order to be a light and a signpost to those who are #still working to achieve enlightenment. Well, well, choose ye well. few and known, enlightenment is over-rated. incarnation is misunderstood and a trap to the deluded. the choice you offer is over-limited. # A primary and evident truth to this magician is that it's all #false, all the time. And it's all true, all the time. You decide for #you, because time is, ye fools. making a mockery of knowledge and a potential shinanigans of religion. #The true gate of personal sovereignty is the realization that a magician #must ultimately be self-referential and self-validating. That's strong #medicine, doled out daily. After that spoonful, one can ponder where the #edges of 'the self' lie." dunno who you were quoting, but I agree with this paragraph strongly and think the edges of the self are everywhere so much as that the self is of illusory constancy and dependent upon the process of identification. #>what does formalizing relationships as responsibility do to their nature? # #Meditate on it. Try it and see. I was asking you. I have my own experience and preferences obviously. #>why isn't it our duty to ignore those with whom we have no interest and #>let them perish or survive based on their strength and placement of birth? # #Then come to your own conclusions. that's not an answer. #>also, I have come to accept as rational many Satanic principles of the #>destruction of religion such as this except as regards certain services #>to which you may be alluding (counselor, for example). #What would make you trust one person more than another in this regard, #I wonder? shared experience and values. #If you needed a 'counselor', would you get on the bus and talk it out #with the person next to you as readily as someone you had determined #was skilled at 'counseling'? no, recently the Abyss and I decided to see a reliationship counsellor. she got recommendations from some friends, eventually we decided to go to one who had experience with our unique difficulties. as I said, I see a value in this particular skill and its formalization. also they are not pledged to promulgate the Law, so we have to interview and select wisely. #...Thelemites don't 'require' Priestesses, right? But sometimes they #are useful. I have never suggested otherwise. #>and if you are going to enter into this manner of activity I would ask #>you to define rather clearly any presupposed morals you will be #>promoting regarding decisions associated with politic, such as that of #>abortion, generation (procreative? anticreative?), private, consensual #>adult interaction, etc. # #Nothing about my job gives me any authority to determine the #things you have mentioned for another. Why would you possibly #think it did??????????? promotion is much different than determination. #>so far I have heard a distinct *lack* of #>definition where this is concerned on the part of the (c)OTO/EGC Officials, # #And the above sentence should clarify it for you. no it did not. #>Counselor of the Law ought to be able to exposit on these subjects even #>if it is to say that there is no regulation (YET) as to what may be #>recommended. suicide? is this 'Thelemic' by EGC standards? # #It's Thelemic by my standards. I don't believe the EGC #has made policy on it, or much else, concerning people's #individual will. And I don't expect one soon. It's dealt #with in Liber Oz. if the EGC does make a policy on it, formalizing its moral standards, will this still be a 'Thelemic' operation by your assessment? how far can it go before you see there might be a problem? #>if an EGC member asked you to assist in such a suicide what do you #>think your response would be? # #It would be between me and that individual, wouldn't it? I hope so. at present the rituals aren't between you and another individual. no telling when the morals will become regularized too. #>#The Church is not a toy. People depend on it, get invested in it. #> #>is this something to be ENCOURAGED? is it possible this is a DISEASE? # #I see it working, and no, I don't think it is a disease. working toward what? #>what is the return as you see it? pacification? somnambulance? # #Community. It's working for many of us in this #Valley. You're having a different experience it #would seem. So it goes. Thou hast no right but #to do thy will. is community more important than Thelema? is the latter worth sacrificing for the benefits of a social grease? E666 _______________________________________________________________________________ nigris (333) -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/ ============================================================================== 49970709 aa2 Hail Satan! E6 maat@IO.COM (C.L.K.): #The Church is growing, and it requires a solid foundation #to accommodate the people who are coming to it.... such is a general conclusion with which I think we all agree, with differing valuation as to the nature and function of religion. nigris: #>#>the question I'd ask anyone who favors this fusion, authority cementation, #>#>adherence to civil law by virtue of incorporation as religious entity, #>#>and regularization of religious rites, is how do you feel that ANY of it #>#>supports the promulgation of the Law of Thelema? #I believe that a building a firm foundation supports a strong building. there is no dispute of this of which I am aware. #Establishing a framework does not disallow improvisation. of course it does. it disallows improvisation where this framework has been established. ignoring the restricive nature of discipline is an error which in some measure I aim to rectify. the issue isn't so much whether there is discipline, but where the line should be drawn. #The organization is a flagpole. Thelema is a flag. #It is certainly a way to promulgate the Law. #It's a paradox, isn't it? paradox? I don't think so, but I do think that there are variations of degree with respect to this promulgation, and that demonstration and example as regards individual genius and allowance for this within the official liturgical framework are as much a means of promulgation as is consolidation of a skeleton for the body of religious. #>#how does orthodoxy promote individualism? #If you define orthodoxy as a state where no innovation is permitted and #all is static, then I don't believe you have a lot to worry about. straw man. the question is not whether it is now restrictive to nil but whether restriction serves and, if so, how far it should be taken in the presumed promulgation (appears to be a declarative, though I have been arguing that actions are declarations as much as words) of the Law. if Thelema is relegated to the status of a flag, will it be seriously understood or believed? if the edifice which flies it does not appear to demonstrate or rely upon it, does this not compromise its integrity? what is being asked in analogy is how much skeleton is sufficient to construct the body and when does it become an exoskeletal chastity-belt that damages the potential development of genius amongst the flock. E666 _______________________________________________________________________________ nigris (333) -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/ =============================================================================== 49970708 aa2 Hail Satan! E6 nigris: #>the aversion to woman as whore appears to be fairly pervasive within #>conservative Western society, not just involving men. more on that below. catzlaff@95net.com (Michelle Catlett-Tetzlaff) #...I have no such aversion to Whoredom. of course, but most within the Thelemic culture couldn't be classified as residing within 'conservative Western society'. #...What do you mean, not just involving men? I mean that it isn't just men in that conservative society who retain that aversion. the women appear to be averse to it too. #...we need _all_ the archtypes, not just one or two. with this I substantially agree. there may be some who do not by virtue of direct experience, having resolved the unconscious somehow. admittedly these may be rare. #>if the Mass is so unbalanced, how is it valuable? is there reason to #>suggest it is part of a "men's mysteries" emphasis which does not address #>lasting parity toward a rounded individual development? #I see it as valuable, despite its verbal imbalances, because the current #which I feel is relatively balanced. I suspect it has to do with the #individual approaches of the priest and priestess more than the general #current. #And the observer/participant, too: as communicant and as deacon I've so far #tended to the perhaps limited perspective that the Mass is all happening #within me; when I yearn to Nuit it is me I'm calling for. #Why, do you see the Mass as a 'men's mystery' involvment? I'd got the impression that 'Mass' was idealistically a unification of complementaries in relative parity of power and position. as has been objected, the current form of the EGC Gnostic Mass can be criticized on the basis of its language and its priestess role. I'm not sure what your comment on 'current' might be except that the inherent imbalance somehow suits you, catalyzes psychospiritual processes you enjoy. this could also be said for the Roman Catholic Mass and its effect for those who enjoy it. if the criticism about the priestess as sex object and/or ritual furniture has substance, then one line of inquiry is whether it serves men by virtue of symbolizing their role with respect to some feminine entity or symbol, or if it serves women as an internal masculine reflection of personal unconscious contents -- say, maybe women are taught to see *themselves* as such object and furniture (which strikes me as accurate) and so their projection of these into ritual circumstances compares favorably with the Mass as it stands. I'm sure there are other possibilities. #...The dichotomy between the empowering freedom of #Thelema - the law for all, and the disrespect to half of us deities of #*keeping* the rite in a format that does not allow the full expression of #the female role. But in all the clamour about it, I sniff change in the #air - maybe this is simple minded optimism, but in my hope for the #promulgation of the Law, I believe it will change. I see that too many #people know it has to change to survive. I don't have any objection to #that change happening slowly or cautiously, as long as I see it happening. might there be disadvantages to that change happening slowly, or advantages to continuing something that cements men or women into very limited roles? isn't this one of the criticisms by Protestants of the RCC on account of its exclusion of women in power and centrality to the church? #>if the case then perhaps #>those who had first been acculturated without rebelling may be the best #>participants (i.e. those who were sheep and rounded themselves out on the #>comparative goat-path). the real danger is when the sheep begin to grow in #>the comparison as a type of fundamentalism. then the only way out for them #>will be conversion to the 'Old Aeon' comparables.... #>am headed (:>). #...You're talking sheep either becoming goats by following goat-paths, or #making more fundie sheep, in which case your goats convert to what? #Osirian age christians? Or? You've lost me among the alpine flowers. if Thelema represents goats (which I think it used to until it became associated with religion) and 'Christianity' represents sheep (this is an admittedly facile model), then perhaps those most to benefit from Thelema, if it is to be so unbalanced, are those who first were Christians. those who grow UP in the religion called 'Thelema' may, by virtue of its growing fundamentalism, really be Christians in the sense of being sheep within a different mythological paradigm. these Christian 'Thelemites' may have to convert to the Christian religion in order to round out their development, becoming goats to the religion of Thelema. one might also utilize a model constructed of temperatures of water (cold/hot water and Christianity/Thelema and sheep/goats). to round out development one might need to spend time within each temperature pool rather than remaining in one for life. #>#I see the value in Babalon/Nuit identity, but Her aspects are relatively #>#undeveloped compared to the Beast or Hadit or Horus. #>I'll make a stab at the evils these represent. Beast --> cf. 'Beauty and #>the Beast'; one of my hausmates says that this is clearly a tale of how #>the male in het-sexuality is seen by the developing female; of or pertaining #>to qualities of unrefinement, 'barbarians', or a lack of acculturation; #>the dangerous id of Freud, perhaps the Shadow or Animus of Jung. #I watched my own dream-animus develop from beast to man as my perspective #gradually became more balanced. That beast man metaphor runs deep in our #culture, but why can't it be acknowledgment of human animal-ness, rather #than an 'evil'? Men have beast-men imagery as well as women, and like a #woman embracing one or another archetype to incorporate it into her being, #I know men who have done the same with Beast or Horned God. Archetypes are #archetypes - they exist, what would be so evil about that? Or am I leaping #at a casually used word. I was pointing toward the extremity which these archetypes may be designed to diffuse, carefully constructed complements to the upbringing which Crowley and those who added to and perpetuated his text were provided. they are 'evils' only within the naive perspective. they are expanded and fleshed out by those who repeatedly engage them in ritual. thus I was attempting to describe why it was that the Babalon/Nuit/Scarlet Woman/Whore batch might not yet be fleshed out. it may *synch* into the upbringing rather than act as a catalyst toward experiencing its converse. putting the priestess up on the altar may effectively render her inaccessible to the grappling (largely male) psyche. whereas the masculine archetypes of condemnation in conservative culture are exposed for their incompleteness and provided clothing and a pleasant mix of positive and negative components, it may take feminist writers/artists to exposit the details of the liberated Whore (I see some of this happening in this elist during the discussion of the haetera). as regards the Gnostic Mass, to be effective for men in rounding these out it may take *reversing* the roles or substantially changing the dynamics between priest and priestess in order to initiate and preserve the momentum of infusing the priestess and all she represents with more power and significance than as mother and sex (compare the parallel development beyond 'Maiden/Mother/Crone' in Wicca). in this sense the Beast was an old archetype successfully integrated into the Christian tradition through the back door of the Patmos Revelation. it takes originating or identifying as a Christian to synch the favor of 'the Messiah', identifying as the Beast to ground the exaltation of 'the Godhead', and coming to understand the Hadit of one's genius, one's true will and center, before being able to end an obsession with the altruistic social role of the Savior and engaging psychospiritual maturation. #>Hadit --> cf. Jung's 'personality'; the star shining forth in individual #>splendor; this is dangerous to the group as it threatens to occlude or #>subsume its energies to the projects and persona of the star (perhaps as #>Aleister Crowley did with (c)OTO and the EGC); it is dangerous to sheep #>in that it puts into shadow their meager efforts and disrupts the herd. # #What do you mean? Hadit as a reflection of AC's star? But aren't all of #the thelemite gods - at least their written imagery - reflections of AC's #personal relationships, since what we read, until we form our own #relationships with these deities, is AC's perspective? I'd thought they were much more than this, or could be interpreted as such. one may very well identify them completely with the AC psyche, and yet their *religious* value, implied by their placement within the Thelemic religion, are as archetypes for commonly shared experiences or the possibility of sharing them. beyond what I've said about Hadit above, it seems to me that he may be seen as the personification of every innate consciousness-point, and that this is seldom given emphasis within religious establishments as they have come down to us, the individual forgotten for the gods. #...I want to see multifaceted relationships with the thelemite deities, #not just AC's. A collection of writings on thelemic deities written by #everyone _but_ Crowley. this strikes me as something along the lines which Tim the Wizard has been suggesting and with which I agree -- original scripture or inspired writing by Thelemites for Thelemites, rather than regurgitated Crowley and the condemnation of 'competitors'. while I agree that this would prove quite valuable, it is possible that the reason this is not happening (where it isn't) is that the Crowleyan (i.e. Satanic) particulars are still considered to be of value in the religious administration (perhaps being fond of women-as-furniture :>) and those who are editing popular journals may still find value in obsessing over the dead skin of their prophet. in part this is why I feel it valuable to oppose religious norms so strongly, as they may perpetuate outworn structures and concepts beyond their utility, within and outside ritual. then again, it is quite possible that these orgs and authorities have a *very* broad aim and are trying to serve the bulk of humanity (which in the US is largely Christian) as a Satanic counterforce through the continued perpetuation of Crowley's writ. it makes sense that those who, meditating upon Crowley's text, would find it unbalanced and move on to more expansive practice, yet the bulk of the Thelemic culture may be slow in catching on. Crowleyan extremity may short out hazardous circuits slowly, or the Old Aeonic patterns may be so deeply ingrained that it takes a long time for their complements to seep into the religious mind. I'm attempting to shift the discussion from a simply linear and absolute consideration of the effectiveness of the Mass and religious archetypes and instead to propose a polar relationship they may have with the religious -- one which may make regularization a serious and dangerous enterprise. E666 _______________________________________________________________________________ nigris (333) -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/ EOF -- (emailed replies may be posted) ------- join the AMT syncretism!!! see http://www.abyss.com/tokus ---------- call: 408/2-666-SLUG!! "sa avidya ya vimuktaye" -- "that which liberates is ignorance"
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organized into a number of sub-directories, each dealing with a different branch of religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge. Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit: |
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interdisciplinary:
geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc. |
SEARCH THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):
OTHER ESOTERIC AND OCCULT SITES OF INTEREST
Southern
Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo,
including slave narratives & interviews
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