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From: Bill Heidrick 
Subject: Re: Sex/Drugs/RnR (Re: Too bad OTO isn't into sex 'n drugs!)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:09:36


Without prejudice to OTO:

Patrick Crumhorn  wrote

>     Based on observation over the years, I would presume that the (C)OTO,
>like the (T)OTO, imposes no restrictions of this type upon its individual
>members...only a restriction as regards *official* OTO functions.  In
>other words, don't light up a joint at an official, public, Gnostic Mass,
>but if you're performing an unofficial rite outside of formal OTO
>functions, then Do what thou wilt.  If I'm wrong about this, I'm sure
>I'll be quickly corrected.  ;-)

As usual, where "(c)OTO" was written, I respond with "OTO".

I don't have personal knowledge of the "(T)OTO" aspect, but the OTO itself
is pretty much that way.  Illegal acts that involve OTO, other OTO members
or guests of OTO are considered violations of both Liber OZ and common
sense (often the same thing), in that they unduly risk freedom of others.
That means no contraban or solicitation for such at OTO places or
functions.  Otherwise, subject to condition, the matter is up to the
individual.  Don't hurt anybody else through deliberate action or serious
negligence.  Beyond that, it you mess yourself up to the point that you are
seriously mentally impaired, you can loose your membership.  It's also not
ok to come to one's own initiation in such a state that it is doubtful that
the experience will have any OTO significance.  Most of the problems in the
harm area come from violent confrontations, theft or disruptive conduct to
the extent that OTO meetings cannot proceed and the person involved refuses
to either settle down or leave the place.  It's also ok to discuss drugs
and their use, so long as "true confessions" and direct advocacy for
personal use aren't the highlights.
  With regard to sex, upper OTO degree practices are private.  Sex with
minors and mentally impared is not OK.  Sex with consenting adults is good,
so long as "consent" includes informed consent.  We don't cater orgies, but
some OTO places do have an interest and opportunity for some members on the
side.  Some OTO places do not.  Illegal activity closes OTO locations, on
the side or down the middle.  OTO has expelled members for soliciting
people met at OTO occasions to engage in drug distribution, even if not
done in an OTO context.  OTO has also expelled members for long-term
loosing it by self abuse with drugs, mostly alcohol.
   Although OTO individual officers and members are on record as advocating
changes in the laws of the land to make more substances legal, OTO itself
cannot do that under the laws governing US tax exemption.

Bill Heidrick wants to see pot and raw opium legal &c.
The OTO Treasurer General has to shut up about it.

93 93/93
Bill Heidrick, not writing as OTO TG.

From  Mon May 26 07:49:04 1997
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Subject: Re: Sex/Drugs/RnR (Re: Too bad OTO isn't into sex 'n drugs!)
Date: Mon, 26 May 97 16:47:50 +0100
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>From:        John Everall,

>>this is now a taboo in COTO, it appears, what with the rennovation of the
>>people who engaged these illegal (and I'd suggest that is the main problem
>>with it, its illegality) activities.  

>Frankly, I am astonished that COTO takes such an attitude. Is the above

Illegal substances are not allowed at offical OTO events, simply because 
they are illegal, and the Order has no desire to see large numbers of its 
members go to prison. Many police forces have used the excuse of drug 
possession in order to harass or imprison undesirable elements in the 
past, and the OTO is certainly considered undesirable in most communities.

Furthermore, the OTO does not allow any of its initiation rituals to be 
performed when one of the officers or the candidate is intoxicated or 
otherwise not in a state of full consciousness. These ceremonies are 
complex and require concentration on the part of the officers and the 
taking of serious decisions on the part of the candidate. A clear head is 
essential in this context.

Outside of that, if it is the Will of someone to consume mind-altering 
substances, that's their business. I think the majority of people in the 
Order (whatever their position) agree that it can be very useful and 
enlightening. I think many would *also* agree that it can be very 
crippling too. There's no question that some people have had their 
capacity to live freely impaired by addiction, Crowley among them by his 
own admission. It depends on who you are and what you take. As always, 

93 93/93


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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:30:41 -0500
From: Patrick Crumhorn 
Subject: Re: Sex/Drugs/RnR (Re: Too bad OTO isn't into sex 'n drugs!)
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At 03:51 PM 5/26/97, Bill Heidrick wrote:

>Gore spoke for fundraising at a Buddhist temple.  In any event, aside from
>this, OTO has members in all degrees of nearly all political persuasions.
>This is not our primary focus.  Even if we could get away with it, it would
>be a deviation from our purpose and would also be yet another matter in
>which we interfere with the private inclinations of the members.  It was
>very difficult with the Yugoslavian war, since we had substantial numbers
>of members in the different break-away republics as well as in Serbia.

     Hmmmm....interesting.  Though, IMHO, advocacy of the principles
espoused in Liber OZ does not seem like it should offend the membership
of an organization such as the OTO.  A stand against laws that create
"victimless crimes" is not of the same mold as a sectarian stand in an
ethnic or political conflict or war.  Advocating the abolishment of
victimless crime laws doesn't affect anyone's private inclinations,
really, unless those inclinations are to interfere with the will of others.
     The late, lamented Bill Hicks had a hilarious routine about the
Supreme Court ruling that flag-burning is constitutional.  "What?
The court says we have to burn our flags?!?!"  "No, no, they simply said
you can't *stop* someone from burning their *own* flag."  "Nope, they
said we have to burn our flags!!  My God!!"
     Likewise, advocating drug legalization in no way implies a call
for compulsory use of drugs, and legalizing prostitution forces no one
to be dragged screaming and kicking to a mandatory session at a brothel.
This seems so self-evident that I'm always amazed when our breed of Texas
"conservatives" can't grasp the idea.
     I *do* get your point about the unequal enforcement issue, though.
It comes down to how much an individual, a group, or a Thelemic Order
is willing to compromise in order to exist within a barbaric society.
It's a hard call.  
     Gotta respect the Church of the Sub-Genius for their stance, though.
They thought about tax-exempt status early on, but decided against it 
for the reasons you outline above.  Their stand is "dammit, we pay our 
taxes, and we can say whatever the hell we want to in return."  ;-)

     93  93/93


                  Patrick Crumhorn
           It IS as bad as you think, and they ARE out to get you

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