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Initiated Perspectives and Thelema

From: (nigris (333))
Subject: "Initiated" Perspectives and Thelema 

49990720 IVom Hail Avalokitesvara! Hail Satan!

correspondent A:
# Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The word of Sin is Restriction. expect it everywhere,
be surprised when you don't find it. 

#>#> I have been in OTO for 15 years and have never seen any 
#>#> "non-OTO" thelemites treated badly by the OTO.

correspondent B:
#> [A], he is right.  

perhaps he was closing his eyes. hello [B], it is
my pleasure to make your acquaintance. 

#> We were even polite to the guy who told us that the CIA 
#> made him resurrect the dead when he was 11.

# I commend the fact that you were polite to an individual such 
# as this And what of Mathias, or Mr. Fernee, or perhaps Ashton_V, 
# who seem to have had bad experiences?

the (c)OTO contains many immature, fallible human beings. we might
as well admit it and be done with it. mistakes have been made, the
people volunteering or drafted for the jobs were in some cases not
adept at either problem-solving or dispute resolution. in at least
a few cases serious bungling appears to have taken place.

# I believe they've expressed the problems which have occurred on
# multiple occasions.

I think this type of experience is more likely in elitist
organizations in which the degree of involvement is presumed to
be linked to "spiritual mastery". the expectations surrounding
those who carry out administrative business are inevitably over-
estimated as ladder-climbing and badge-wearing become endeavors
of some portion of membership. this was one of the reasons that
LaVey said he changed the Church of Satan and inspired Aquino
and those who formed the Temple of Set to flee in disgust: he
didn't want the organization developing THIS elitism and was
more comfortable describing a direct connection between WORLDLY
power and membership ranking. this upset the spiritualists and
ladder-climbing socialites.

#> if [one] has had a bad experience, one should address the parties
#> involved and attempt resolution.

unless it reflects poorly on an organization as a PATTERN OF
MEMBERSHIP MISHANDLING, in which case it should become known
to all who are approaching the organization: "Caution, this
group of people may contain overblown louts and miscreants!"
#> [A], can you explain every nuance of your perspective? 

# No, but I can try to do so without resorting to "It's an initiated
# perspective; you'd never understand."

oh Reverend, you just need an interpreter! let me initiate you
into the cultspeak of Thelema with your first translation (we
have a batch of them in 'Broken Links' online somewhere; I'll
dig them up and post them if you ask):


	  I cannot explain, it is beyond your Grade.


	  I don't have the capacity to explain, being an
	  ass-kisser without a well-rounded education.

# ...I do reasonably expect an attempt to back up statements with 
# reasonably authoritative answers.

this expectation will not be met by those who shift behind their
"oaths of secrecy" in order to conceal their ignorance, folly,
and immaturity, simultaneously trying to make you look wrong or
insufficiently connected/advanced/etc. to have the privilege of
their vaunted information. this is one of the reasons that I
oppose such secrecy (because it is severely misused outside the
context of real emergencies).
# ...where my concern ultimately lies is in the fact that those 
# who have had bad experiences are told generally that:
# (1) It isn't a big deal.  "Get over it"
# (2) "I've had good experiences, and yours are less important than mine."
# (3) "I don't care, or don't believe you."
# What is fraternal about ignoring the pain or problems experienced 
# by those you would call brothers and sisters?

two answers, the first somewhat farcical and ironic:

	as brothers fight ye!

many within the occult community are social misfits. we don't always
develop the social amenities necessary for polite and open
discussion about ourselves or our involvements. I am quite shy, for
example, offline, and do not enjoy vying for sonic supremacy amongst
a flock of squaking 'adepts'. the "it isn't a big deal, get over it"
school of hard knocks is commonly presented within "wisdom-oriented"
power-monger cults. these are by and large male and often include
'white' males (age varies but I'd guess membership probably centers
between 19 and 34). some of these organizations grow up, many of its
members may never do so, however. sensitivity, vulnerability, love,
compassion, in short agape may be discussed occasionally, but seldom
do those who talk about it understand its deeper imports, being more
prone to choose desensitization and the marginalization of the weak
in favor of manly shows of discipline than to demonstrate how
kind and considerate we can be to the inquisitive and/or idiotic.

the 'my good experiences are more important than your bad ones' are
just ignorant and nonsensical. these miss the point of bringing up
the issue and serve to demonstrate the depth of cultishness that
surrounds the group ('always defend the Herd against critics').

those who say we don't care or don't believe you seem to me at
least a bit more *honest*, if less honorable. if given some real
reason to consider the testimony sincere, such a statement seems
to betray a self-willed blindness and lack of introspection which
might be found amongst the lowest levels of a truly Thelemic org,
but which should never be allowed in its decision-making echelon.

but the real reason for ignoring the pain or problems of one's
brothers and sisters is because one is incapable of dealing with
it, due to one's immaturity and lack of genuine love. Reverend,
all manner of individual will be found at a variety of levels in
occult and mystical organizations such as the (c)OTO. do not be
too surprised at the type of 'fraternal' squabbling and vitriol
heaved this way and that. this is, contrary to what some of these
squabbling kindred may indicate, some of the "work" of membership:
to practice 'Thelemic conflict resolution' and come to mature
relationships with those of differing background and character.
as with any skill one practices, the best way to learn is to fail
and try again. as membership realizes its failure, so it may learn.
#> [A], it is not justification, how could I possibly explain 
#> sight to the blind? Think about it! It cannot be done.

'those with eyes to see will know the truth!' this religious
babble can be used to justify ANYTHING as 'beyond your Grade'.
remember the translation I offered above.
# ...I can see; I've been there, and am a member.  

too quick to fall for the bait! the follow-up is 'if you can
see, then you will not need me to explain!' 
#> It IS an intiated perspective, but not just OTO intiations, 
#> there were others, and if you were not there, I cannot tell 
#> you what they were like.

what perspective based on experience is NOT 'initiated'? what
sets an "initiated" perspective apart from a "non-initiated"
perspective? does 'initiated' necessarily mean 'ineffable'?
if so, why? we cannot all take part in one another's experiences.
# Yes, but the constant references to "an O.T.O. perspective" 
# makes me wonder what it is.  If it can't be defined, then 
# how is it a perspective in the first place?

your question is really answered by this:
	  I don't have the capacity to explain, being an
	  ass-kisser without a well-rounded education.

all manner of cultspeak will be brought before you to cover
over a fundamental lack of study, comprehension, and awareness.
this will be enshrouded in a robe of authority so as to inspire
within you the proper respect each of these 'initiates' wishes
you to delegate to us even though we may know in our hearts 
we are undeserving.
#> Example, can you make me feel the perspective you had when 
#> you lost your virginity? 

easily defined words. 'virginity' implies a lack of sexual
experience. I can describe to you what my first sexual
experiences were like, what happened, and how I felt. if
you are talking about a level of communication BEYOND this,
then your words may apply to all descriptions of experience
and be unimportant to our consideration.

#> No, because I am female and you are male, I wouldn't 
#> understand what it was like/what you felt/etc...

I don't follow this logic. you could understand the words,
might even be able to imagine yourself in his place. there
is a commonality of human sexual experience, emotions, and
much other shared data from which you might draw. denying
you can describe it without trying just displays your
reticence or inability to do so. 

#># And as I've asked repeatedly over the last few weeks: 
#># what constitutes being "in it"?

Reverend, there is no absolute answer to this, as I hope I
have made clear. there is only a kaleidoscope of flimsy
words people use to make ourselves appear grand without
sufficient cause.

#> At the risk of seeming sarcastic: If you have to ask, 
#> you are not in it. 

or at least he does not understand what YOU mean by this.

#> Simple, succinct and to the point.

but no closer to describing what you mean.
# So then, I suppose I'm not.  Time to toss those oaths out 
# the window, and ignore the pledges of fraternity, that 
# paid dues receipt in my drawer, or the Agapes that keep 
# getting sent to me.  

come now, you could be a member of some *other* org (say,
the "MMM") and not really the OTO at all. all the oaths,
pledges, dues and agapes would still apply but the
membership in any particular org would not. you could be
'out of it' without being 'out of everything'.

# I suppose then I should withdraw from participation in 
# the community, 

which one? have we determined this yet? seems ambiguous as
I enter into the conversation (admittedly after having
deleted most beyond your posts, Reverend :>).

# and from anything related to this organization, as in 
# your canonical view, I am not in it.

"canonical"? LOL! she isn't the Supreme and Holy Pontiff,
is she? know the authority of those with whom one is
speaking! of course you were probably being sarcastic,
but I'm addressing you both seriously.
#> And you wouldn't be trying to perpetuate that, would 
#> you [A]?  I seem to detect a bit of resentment coming 
#> from "you" to "us".  Comment?
# Actually, I'm trying to establish a more balanced perspective 
# than "This is fucking great!" or "You are all poseurs; the 
# REAL O.T.O. isn't here!"    

both perspectives are accurate, Reverend. it is fucking great
to be a member of (c)OTO. and we are all poseurs. balancing
this is the opportunity of a lifetime and can best be
accomplished, I think, by dedicated and consistent 
# What I find fascinating is the groupthink which seems to believe 
# that one cannot be "of us" and question the status quo or the 
# situation.  There isn't any resentment here, just amazement 
# that there appears to be an undercurrent of outright hostility 
# towards any member who admits to imperfect treatment within the 
# cult.

now you're talking. suddenly you're one of US (the anti-cultists
in the 'Thelemic' org). it is far worse than this, though I do
not yet sense with my very limited feelers that this cultishness
extends up into the entire upper echelon of the pyramidal
hierarchy. those who ask questions are sometimes ostracized if
the questions are not timed or phrased properly. respect for
one's elders may be a prerequisite for continued admittance to
the body of believers. it varies considerably from body to body
as I understand it. in public you'll meet up with all manner of
fanatic and saint.
#> ...if folks are looking here to decide whether or not they 
#> want to join the OTO, they are making a mistake. 

why is that? I would think that the type and level of
discussion by Order members here would be indicative of
important information about the quality of membership,
of course supplemented by direct interactions with said
members and investigations of the org and its secrets.
# ...I would probably recommend they spend some time on it to 
# understand what they're potentially getting themselves into.

so would I.
#> This list is not the OTO, does not represent the OTO, is not 
#> even remotely connected to the OTO  (it's a Thelema list, 
#> not an OTO list) 

why isn't there an OTO email list? T93-L is connected to the (c)OTO
in that at any time several initiates of said organization may
be posting to it. beyond this I agree.

#> and I personally would not recommend anyone to this list who 
#> is trying to decide about joining!

why not? 
# I'd recommend it in a heartbeat; it establishes that it is not all fun,
# games, sweetness and light, and that there is dissention, there is
# harassment, there are problems, et al, amidst the potential gains of
# membership.  All too often it's presented from an unbalanced perspective,
# and I believe that leads to members expecting too much and attendant
# burnout and negativity.

I agree strongly here.
#> Rather they should contact the OTO. 

which one??  so many choices! inside and outside!!
# I'd recommend just that, as well as reading King, readig 
# Koenig's page, and thinking about what it is that they 
# may be getting themselves involved in.

isn't it a characteristic of the cult that its members do not wish
those who are considering membership in it to get outside data as
it may 'unfairly bias' the mark? no matter how reliable or unbiased
these outsiders may be, instead it is better to go the cult's
leadership for the 'truth'. does 'contact the OTO' mean talk with
Order members? if so, can these members be contacted in T93-L? can
their activities be a reflection of the quality of the organization?
if not, why not?

there's got to be something more rational than 'here, put on these
rose-coloured glasses and dedicate your life to me and my cult!'
in a 'Thelemic' organization. what could it be?

blessed beast!

nigris (333)

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