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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,alt.magick,alt.consciousness.mysticism,alt.sufi,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,alt.mythology,alt.religion.angels
From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nigris (333))
Subject: Guardian Angels and Psychospiritual Integration
Date: 23 Jul 1999 22:57:54 -0700

49990630 IVom

a correspondent writes:
#>#> If one knows there is such a thing as a genius, HGA, Godhead, 
#>#> then that person will inevitably find it? 
 
#> certain knowledge is not truly available. even those who have 
#> Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel cannot
#> be certain. the certainty some adopt is merely a faith so as
#> to retain the integrity of their mind in the face of unusual
#> psychospiritual events. rather than 'going crazy' or dwell
#> in uncertainty (as do the masters), they would prefer to
#> believe and act based on belief. this is what I do in order
#> to answer you with strength also. ;>
#> 
#> What good is faith if there is always a constant doubt in 
#> the back of your mind? Can someone's faith if they just 
#> believe enough and fully become a truth of reality by their 
#> own creation? Say if someone believed that a chair would 
#> take all their worldly problems away if they pray to it, if 
#> someone believed in that chair with full faith and certain 
#> trust would they receive their results they believed the chair
#> would provide? So basically all in all it doesn't matter where 
#> your faith goes as long as you have faith in something, like 
#> a form of survival for the mind?

at some point faith is insufficient and living in uncertainty
with dedicated attention and observant analysis or dwelling
in intuitive orientation is sufficient. the constant doubt is
a means by which one can keep from becoming hoodwinked. it
does not prevent practical application of confidence where
the odds bear out sufficient warrant for such.

I don't think that belief leads to reality unless it is in
perfect coordination with the true will, and this only aims 
properly, it doesn't get one there, from what I can tell. it
is like having insight into the future configuration of the
world and working toward it. one still must work toward
being in the proper role at the proper time so as to be
aligned with the currents of the real world as they manifest.
not being able to be certain of the true will, we are left
to our own devices and grit to accomplish what we perceive
it to be.

I think more than faith is required in order to avoid some
kind of self-delusion. doubt, skepticism, attention, and
a willingness to consider alternatives are also very
important. combining these, anything is possible.

#>#> Or is it possible for someone to know it exsists but never 
#>#> get in touch with it? 
#> 
#> if fear or ignorance (believing it is evil, not worth their
#> time, etc.) prevents them, yes. being aware that something
#> exists is not the same thing as knowing what that thing IS
#> or whether it would be valuable to contact it and learn from it.
#>  
#> What if someone believed that it was waluable to contact it and
#> wasn't afraid of it, would it be certain to open to them then?

I have no idea. I suspect it depends on the individual, whether
on account of their particular psychological condition or their
position in any cosmic hierarchy which hands deals these kinds 
of relationships out (e.g. the Secret Chiefs, Tibetan Masters,
some god or another, etc.).

#>#> Is getting initiated without knowing it a bad thing? 
#>#> Or just a natural process? 
 
#>#> Is it true that the only conversation with your HGA must 
#>#> be in meditation or ritual? Or can it be incorporated
#>#> into common everyday life? 
 
#> ...such a conversation may take many forms, can occur in 
#> many contexts. it can be a personal (e.g. talking 
#> quasi-audibly with a disembodied voice)

# ...what does quasi-audibly mean?

'like-sound'. compare to a voice in the head which others 
who are in one's presence cannot hear. it could be one's
imagination (as in the remembrance of a conversation or a
song) or it could be another part of the mind (as when one
experiences visions, hallucinations, or some visual experience
which is not intentional on on the part of the person 
experiencing it).

#>#> Does it become you? and You become it? Or is it seperated. 
#>#> When having visions does it take a form? Or is it your form?
 
#> I have never heard of an HGA "possessing" an aspirant, but
#> this would not surprise me too much. if this happened I
#> would expect that the person possessed would be able to
#> perceive the entire event, else why would the HGA bother?
#> my understanding is that it is to the HGA's advantage
#> (perhaps because of the relationship of identity, perhaps
#> because of other factors that have to do with theology
#> and the angelic organization and reward system) to help
#> us to mature and learn. possession without recall doesn't
#> seem to lead to this learning or maturity, but I may be
#> overlooking something.
  
# So most of the time it takes a seperate form? ...the angel and
# demon I see both look like me in a way, yet I am looking at 
# them. 

it is my understanding that the HGA is summoned or an exchange
or relationship with them is engaged through extraordinary
action on the part of the initiate. that is, the HGA does not
normally "suddenly appear", especially as a part of a 'good
angel/bad devil' quasi-Judeochristian dilemma. what you are
describing sounds to me like a personal ethical crisis which
is exteriorized into a stage of your mind that you may come
to understand it. I would as usual recommend abiding with
that which supports and comforts you if the opposition seems
to be desirous of your debilitation or demise.

something which may not be immediately obvious to you and which
I think should be said here is that these types of discernments
are poorly made via email and in reflection of descriptions
provided by those undergoing the situation. this description
is of course important, but the distance at which I could
provide any kind of really insightful advice would have to be
much closer (spending time with you and seeing the context of
your comments and queries). so please don't take my guesses as
more than shots in the dark based on what you have said and
asked here. I recommend you seek assistance from someone of
expertise near to you and in person rather than through the
medium of computer communications, where you may meet a
person who is not as nice (or humble! ;>) as myself who will 
speak honestly of hir limitations and the unlikelihood of
seriously addressing this problem you bring to the forum.
you take risks by relying on computer interactions in order
to address this problem you appear to be facing and I would 
like to emphasize this.
 
# There are so many visions, how do you know what each one 
# really is? 

you can't, as I understand it, but you can develop your own
intuitive faculties and techniques and use them as mechanisms 
by which you may test these visions. this is the method of 
ceremonial magick, from what I can see, in the manner 
instructed by many of those in the 'Thelemic' (and greater 
Goldawnian) community, as I mentioned in a different post 
(e.g. using something like "777"; however fallacious may be
the justification scheme for using such a lattice).

# I know I haven't become completely intune with my inner self, 
# this I strive at more and more each day...will this solve 
# all these answers?And if so how?

becoming 'completely in tune with the inner self' will
require that you get to know this inner self. that would
best be accomplished, as I understand it, by reducing the
elements of your conscious experience to a small enough
set so as to 1) discern what this "inner self" might be,
2) determine how to become more aware of what you have
so identified, and 3) keeping a skeptical (observant)
attitude such that illusions, delusions and fantasies do
not impede your actual progress.

striving seldom leads to peace, from what I can see, unless

there is some obvious end toward which you are headed. the
ambiguous "attuning to the inner self" may seem like a very
clear objective, but I don't think it is at all clear.

#> So if someone had a very [old? wise?] soul and many past lives 
#> and their Karma was very developed they wouldn't be treated as 
#> more intelligent and wiser on the subject of the soul?How come?
#> treated by whom? by the greater 'Thelemic' community (about whom
#> your original question asked)? consider that this community is
#> comprised of a varying degree of individuals who are more and
#> less able to *perceive* soul character or karmic development.
#> how they ARE treated says little about how they SHOULD be so.
#   
# You have lost me here.

just because someone may be an "old soul" that doesn't mean that 
anyone else will recognize this.

#> you may be a very old and wise soul, for example, if we were to
#> accept the whole transcendentalist idea (souls inside bodies),
#> but it is possible that either by virtue of your character,
#> birth, or circumstance you will be overlooked.
#    
# I have always thought that the soul was inside the body, but 
# could leave the body if concentration enough, via astral 
# travel, 

this is a popular dualistic and at times anti-terran perspective
which I do not enjoy.

# yet what you are saying is is most people overlook others 
# no matter what they really are because most people don't 
# look beyond the surface not even those who are well 
# educated on the fact that there is more than the surface???

the situation is far worse than this. oh there is a great deal
of attention to what is 'beyond the surface', but the ability
to discern between projection and the perception of reality
is seldom developed (refinement of attention and a skeptical and
a scientific attitude). this lack of development leads to all
manner of name-calling, assessments based on popularity and
surface-orientation which MASQUERADES as something profound,
with great fucking wads of societal intrigue that I think are
better ignored and avoided where one is not an immediate part.

# I mean to really hate or love someone you have to know their
# soul, not their external, but hey...I thought most educated 
# people knew that? I don't understand how this could be 
# overlooked? 

"knowing the soul" is not required in order to hate or love
that which one believes another to be. all that is required
is some scape-label under which to target one's pent-up
agressions or affections. interacting with fantasy figures
does really appear to be a popular pastime.

#># I have visions of an angel and a demon, both love
#># each other, but hate each other..whenever something in 
#># my life goes astray and I feel pain the angel hurts, 
#># whenever I am feeling happyand determined the demon 
#># fights, is this valid, or just mind crap? 

#># I always ask myself that, but I can't seem to tell the difference, 
#># I am such an imaginator, I daydream a lot, it's hard to tell 
#># differences like that, If you know what I mean.

#> yes, I do know what you mean. you are asking an epistemological
#> question. ultimately knowing that it is "mind crap" will not
#> make the experience change drastically, as far as I know. it
#> may incite you to ignore it, however, and this may indeed be
#> helpful over the long run. 
 
# Ignoring something that comes to you naturally is a good thing? 
# How can this be?curious.

giving that which distracts us our attention can actually feed
the distraction and waste our time. interference in a transmitted
communication constitutes such a 'distraction', and when we are
incapable of eliminating this interference sometimes we are left
with the best possible alternative: ignoring it until (hopefully)
it goes away or we become unaware of it. "don't give it any
energy" the New Agers say.
 
#> You have great sound advice..and have made my mind reel..thanks.

my pleasure, kin. do as you please. btw, I think your approach
to your beloved will be well-rewarded.  good luck.

blessed beast!
__________________________________________________________________________
(333) nagasiva@luckymojo.com; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html
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