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Yi's, Magic and Taoism

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.divination,alt.magick,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.consciousness.mysticism
From: xiwangmu 
Subject: Yi's, Magic and Taoism
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:34:56 GMT

50030806 viii om

xiwangmu:
#> isn't the classic Yi rather Confucian to regard for Taoism?
#> other Yi's may be more useful, even Mawangdui or something.

Dze :
# Fu Xi is credited in creating the Yin and Yang system and the Gua, 
# not as a means to divination (initially), but as a philosophy of 
# life (and death) and a Qi Gong exercise: Ba Gua Zhang. 

sure, and Fu Xi is supposed to have been a snake-lord too,
complete with a snake-lady wife.

# (Experiential)  philosophical Taoism, as opposed to religious 
# Taoism from the Celestial Masters' School of Taoism, began 
# (presumably) from insights gleaned from the Yi-Jing -- much like
# Sufism was founded on interpretations from certain passages in 
# the Qur'an ( Though unlike Sufism, Taoism is from only one 
# doctrine: the Yi-Jing.). 

very interesting. I'd somehow got the notion that there was more
than one Yi and that Taoists were inspired by more than just 
the classic Yi. thank you for that perspective.

# It was Confucius who came to Lao Tzu for instruction in this 
# 'oral tradition' of Yi- Jing interpretation called Taoism.  

the masters are always being used to say things by tradition.
they seem to portray their characters in ways dependent upon
the use they have for them. it is as amusing to read of how
Lao Tzu and Kung Fu Tzu dialogued as how Gautama or 
Bodhidharma spoke with either of them. at least 
there is a contemporaneous potential in the account.

# Later Confucius added commentary to the Yi-Jing's 'living 
# tradition' as he understood it from Lao Tzu's teaching.

I thought this was also part of the folk tales. do you really
think Master Kung provided that Commentary, or is it just an
attribution, like the pseudo-Agrippa's Fourth Book of Occult
Philosophy?

# Your misunderstanding the Yi-Jing to be Confucian in 
# its roots....

oh I didn't mean its roots, I was speaking about the classic
as to its current character. I willingly subject myself to
your erudite correction nonetheless for my humility lesson.

# Confucianism owes its roots to the Yi-Jing and Taoism --
# albeit in extremely dogmatic ways.

again, very interesting. I've heard something of the fusion
which some involved in it all tell me exists such that what
are called 'Confucianism' and 'Taoism' cannot even be at
this time winnowed out. so you think that the classic Yi
preceded Master Kung, rather than post-dating him? 
 
# The Yi-Jing of the Complete Reality School of Taoism, 
# of which Li Wn, Lao Tzu ( "Old Master.") and Chuang Tzu 
# (another pupil of Lao Tzu) belonged, wouldn't have included 
# divination in their scheme of cultivation in devolution 

yes, I gather there is some contention about this which 
is at odds with magic and sorcery. this is in part what I 
found confusing in the passages you passed along to us.
I could only imagine he meant to refer to magic as illusion,
though tales are such that Chuang is sometimes associated
with the more magical than contemplative streams, so I could
not be sure.

# of your mentioning (materialist) ideas of Western 
# (so-called) sorcery while speaking of Yin Wn. 
# Hilarious.

not being familiar with Yin Wen, I was amused myself, and
am very glad that I can pass that amusement on to you.

thank you for your thrashing.

mu

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