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To: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: jaybuzin0000@cs.com (Jaybuzin0000)
Subject: Re: Sage
Date: 27 May 2000 11:54:13 GMT

MS wondered:

>A lot op you talk abou sage and sagedom. Whaat is that?

To me
what is called 'the sage'
is a mode of being.

I say that everybody is 'the sage'
because everybody has access to this mode.
When flowing-freely, effortless-action,
without giving thought; that's a zone
that I point to when using the term.

For instance,
in the Tao Te Ching (ch 11) it speaks
of how emptiness is what makes things work.
In the Chuang-tzu it speaks of the center,
the axis, hinge, or pivot of Tao, from which
one may effortlessly respond to anything.
The sage is you, when you are being
and radiating from that still-point.

When Tao is lost, many things are happen.
Terms such as 'sage' and 'tao' are pointers.
Tao is akin to water. The sage is akin to water.
When you are flowing, as does water,
you have entered into the zone
of what could be called
sagedom.

From one view, everybody is always th'air.
From another view, not everybody is.

My view is not necessarily
the view that others would call 'Taoism'.

-a bozo
in the grove
{:-])))

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From: oneof10k@aol.com (lisa)
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Subject: Re: Sage
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Marcus writes:

>A lot op you talk abou sage and sagedom. Whaat is that?
>
>Marcus Staffhorst

A sage is an ideal or archetype, which in Taoism is described in various ways
in the taoist texts.  The sage in the TTC is described differently than the
sage in the CT.  The attributes of the sage thus describe the parameters of the
philosophy, as far as I can see.

rgds,
lisa





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Subject: Re: Sage
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MS wondered:
[...]

>Could it be that The Sage be translated as "your self and the way you go
>with it" ?

perhaps, depending upon semantics.
Going with your Teh would probably
be the sage way to go, for you at least.
Less and less is said to be the way.
Doing nothing is an ultimate, imo.

many connotations exist.

sheng ren
or sheng-jen is, as lisa suggested,
is 'one of the names by which Chuang-tzu
describes the ideal man, who has attained
perfection (chih-jen, cheng-jen, shen-jen).
The Chuang-tzu (Book 2, Chapter 1) describes
the qualities of a sheng-jen as follows:
 "For the true sage, beyond the limits of an
external world, the so-called 'Eight Predicables'
(right and left, relationship and obligation, 
division and discrimination, emulation and
contention) exist, but are not recognised.
By the true sage, within the limits of an
external world, they are recognised, but are
not assigned. And so, with regard to the wisdom
of the ancients, as embodied in the canon of
Spring and Autumn, the true sage assigns,
but does not justfy by argument. And thus,
classifying, he does not classify, arguing,
he does not argue. The true sage keeps his
knowledge within him, while men in general
set forth theirs in argument, in order to convince
each other. And therefore it is said that in argument
he does not manifest himself. Perfect Tao does
not declare itself. Nor does perfect argument
express itself in words. Nor does pefect charity
show itself in act. Nor is perfect honesty
absolutely incorruptible. Nor is perfect courtesy
absolutely unyielding. For the Tao which shines forth
is not the Tao. Speech which argues falls 
short of its aim. Charity which has fixed points
loses its scope. Honesty which is absolute is
wanting in credit. Courage which is absolute
misses its object. These five are, as it were,
round with a strong bias toward squareness.
Therefore knowledge that stops at what it
does not know is the highest knowledge.
Who knows the arguement which can be
argued without words? (Who knows) the Tao
which does not declare itself as Tao? He who
knows this, may be said to be of god. To be able
to pour in without making full and pour out 
without making empty in ignorance of the power
by which such results are accomplished, -
this is accounted Light." (Giles 1961).'
[-from Shambhala's _Encyclo_.]

note: in Palmer's translation
instead of the word 'god' he has, 'this is called
the Treasury of Heaven'. 
-fwiw

The Chuang-tzu talks about the perfect man
in many places. The TTC also speaks much
about the sage.