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To: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: zhoubu@ix.netcom.com(Miller Jew)
Subject: Re: A Taoist question
Date: 29 Feb 2000 21:36:01 GMT

Marcus Godfrey  wrote: 
lisa wrote:
>
>Is this the Marcus who used to write here before??  In any case,
>welcome  :)

ditto :) 

MG
>Lisa, No I'm new here but have been an out spoken Taoist for
>about eleven years.

Well, good for you! :) 

MG
>To elaborate on the confussi (whatever, I never could spell)
>thing.  My understanding (My standard disclaimer) is that
>Confucius was the philosopher of kings in China. 

Unlike the common view of the Taoist's, re (political/social)
'non-conformity', "Confucius" did work 'within the system' that
perpetuated during his time -> which was systemically chaotic! ;)
For realizing extreme emotional superstitions 'naturally pri-
mordially' (or Shang-epic sub-based..) pervading these warring
periods, he made his (first)-"teacher" attempt to instill mental
reasoning into that emotionally chaotic landscape. To Streetch
this a bit, in esoterical words, I feel he made it his ch'i-
laboring to work the 'bottom'-UP, complementing the 'Taoist's',
who worked from the UP-(to the) 'bottom'. (fn)  

MG
>His ideals were those of servitude in a hierarchy that fell from
>the Emperor down to woman at the bottom. All things serve other
>things and any means necessary should be used to preserve this
>order. 

Historically (and esoterically 'universally') when Confucius was
doing his advocacy operatives, there was *no Confucian-ism* --
that --like their later intermixing with Religious Taoism's yin
yang gender 'confuss'ng-- prostituted much of what he originally
instilled. Much 'Confucianism' confused his thoughts to make it
their own elitist' 'greed' to uphold. Addendum ancient and 
contemporary interpretation confusion, and we have this common
presentation.  
  
MG
>Lao Tsu's Taoism was a small rebellion made for the things that
>served other things to create harmony between all. 

Certainly true. (As I mentioned a few times on this ng) as 
these 'Lao Tzu Taoism' "Shih Idealists" (fn1) identified their
transcendent qualities with their tangible capacities, they
naturally entered into (group)-social/political 'governing'
intervening. "Because the personal character of ruler-
administrators was so pivotal (during these warring times), shih
idealists placed an extraordinary emphasis on character
formation" (LaFarque). Hence, in interweaving this in, they
entered into (the Emperor or Prince's) service to invite a new
foundation for the crumbling social/political order that (then)
reached it's 'extreme' point --> 'change'(s)-over.  

For example, in such assert-ion gleen's, Han Dynasty *Minister*
Sheu Ho (194 B.C.) introduced Laws which neutralized errors of
the unscrupulous and fostered peace and prosperity..." Minister
Ho (a Taoistic -"Shih Idealists?") advocated "he who knows the
Secret of Life, when traveling abroad, will not flee from either
rhinocerous or tiger; when entering a hostile Camp, he will equip
himself with sword or spear. The rhinocerous cannot find in him a
place to insert his horn; the tiger finds no vulnerable spot to
fasten to his claw: Why is this? Because in this man there is no
pore where death can enter." 

MG 
>The emperor then becomes just another man in the river with all
>other men. He is not the way. I believe that this was more to
>keep hope alive in such a repressive time.

For the "shih idealists" the hope was always there. It was a
matter of evolving the human to be a human.. then unfolding the
human to change and transfigure, transform and transcend
further.. 

Regards,

--Zhou


>
>>Marcus wrote:
>
>Rob, The blade of grass will survive because it is small (te)
>and because it is green and thin and pliable and able to move
>about in a strong wind. The tree on the other hand is stiff and
>large and can break in a strong wind.
>
>>Well said.  I see it as maximizing navigational efficiency
>>through utilizing our 'heaven given' attributes...

fn: "As the use of force and political manipulation increasingly
came to replace (the *Emperor*'s) hereditary title as a source of
political power, rulers needed new sources of legitimation. Some
may have looked to "Shih" idealists as a source of this
legitimation, at least wanting to appear as least to be
associated with them.. That "the very high respect with which
some individual "shih" were regarded, led other "shih" to gather
around them, to learn their guidance.. this led to the formation
of many small and informal "shih"-schools.. this is the kind of
group I believe also responsible for the 'Tao Te Ching'". --Prof.
Michael LaFarque 

fn1: As we view the majoral scholastic concept of the "Tao Te
Ching" as notions of the 'Ruler', for the 'Ruler', Confucius "did
not talk about spiritual beings or even about life after death.
Instead believing that the man "can make the Way (Tao) great,"
and not that "the Way can make man great," he concentrated on
man." --Prof. Chan
 
Resources: 
-"The Analects of Confucius: A Philosophical Translation: A New
Translation Based on the Dingzhou Fragments and Other Recent
Archaeological Finds"/ tr. Ames and Rosemont/ 1998. 
-"The Analects of Confucius: A Literal Translation"/ tr. Chichung
Huang/ 1997. 
-"Illustrious Prime Ministers of China: Their Ancient Manners,
Customs and Philosophies: A Symphony of the Spheres"/ L.H. Sang
and Alexander/ 1928
-"The Tao of the Tao Te Ching"/ tr. and commentary, M. LaFarque/
1992
-"Source Book on Chinese Philosphy"/ Prof. Chan/ his tr. quotes
from Confucius's "Analects"/ 15:28