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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.religion.tantra,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.hindu,talk.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.newage
From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode)
Subject: Tantric Ignorance and 'Karmic' Victims (was Homosexual Sex Magic ...)
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:32:23 GMT

50000813 Vom

"Luis Castillo" :
>>> Man and woman represent the First Dyad of Creation and this 
>>> Dyad is bridge through a third factor, the Force of the Holy 
>>> Spirit, the Sexual Force.  That is the mystery of the Trinity.

nagasiva:
>> and what is the 'abomination' of intersexuality'? will you 
>> claim it to be the Satan of your God-man Goddess-woman 
>> cosmology? 

Luis Castillo, before being illuminated as to the meaning 
 of 'intersexuality' (see http://WWW.ISNA.ORG/ for more):
> Now, about of "intersexuality", there is Suprasexuality, which 
> is the result of sexual transmutation, and also Infrasexuality 
> with all its "sexual refinements" as homsexualism, lesbianism, 
> pornography, hatred for sex, disdain for sex, the fear of sex. 
> sexual brutality, sexual sadism, etc etc etc.......

so you do not agree with modern ideas that homosexuality
(male-male/female-female love and sex, found in many 
species) is a natural and ordinary phenonmenon? to you
it is to be associated with violence, hatred and fear?
what brings you to this understanding? is it possible
that traditional prejudices about this are misguided?
 
Luis Castilo, after so understanding (typos/spelling corrected):
> ...the infrasexualism is very close related to all that 
> kind of problems.

so to you "intersexuality" is a "problem" which you agree
should be 'fixed'? you agree with the various physicians
who surgically change the ambiguous genitals of babies so
as to resemble what they call 'normal', deciding for the
individual whether they will be 'male' or 'female'? why?
what brings you to this understanding? is it possible that
traditional prejudices about this are misguided?

> The primitive Male Female Elohim has nothing to do with it. 

perhaps because the "primitive Male Female Elohim" is a
fiction designed to reflect stereotypes of physical birth
which are not accurately reflected in the biological 
reality (this reality being a kind of spectrum from one 
genital type ('penis') to another ('vagina').

you aren't really explaining why the stereotypes should be
considered 'healthy' and 'good' other than to assert this.

> The actual remains of the process of sex separation can be 
> easily observe in our own bodies.... 

very true, and the degree of genital identity varies with
each individual and their specific chemical balance. some
children don't get physically distinguished into the 
stereotypes you seem to be advocating. how you reconcile
this with your 'primitive Dyad' is indicative of how you
regard the NATURAL WORLD, since it doesn't fit neatly into
your tidy conceptual categories (constructed by society).

> That physical abnormality remind me what happens with some 
> people that come with a normal set of sexual organs....

but this is the point, Luis: 'normal' is just an idea. the
reality is that there is a spectrum, and there is no reason
that 'average' should be equated with 'optimum' except in
the minds of the biased and ignorant.

the type of surgery you are supporting here should be
associated with GENITAL MUTILATION, which occurs within
many misguided religious cultures whose backwards moral
attitude includes the physical violation of infants for
their own perverted and sad conceptual agenda. where it
isn't warranted for continued healthy function, it is
SEXUAL ABUSE and should be prevented by strict laws.

let adults do what they WANT with their genitals. to 
modify the bodies of children, especially infants who will
not play any part in the decision, is CRUELTY, and this
isn't about 'normality' except in the minds of those 
who have helped to MAKE bodily variety a stigma.

I'm not just speaking about something I don't understand.
I was "circumcised" by 'helpful doctors' when I was an
infant, and it is well-known that there is now and was
then NO MEDICAL JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS PRACTICE. the same 
is true with most cases of intersexual genital modification.
 
> ...we can agree, without the need of any profesional degree, 
> that the suffering of that person and the suffering of the 
> parents must be terrible.

but this "suffering" is typically not physical, and it is
COMPOUNDED by the ignorant stigma associated with not having
"normal" genitals. YOU are perpetuating this ignorance,
through your repetition of it, and the mythology you are
perpetuating in association with sexual mysticism adds
fuel to prejudicial fires. 

> Of course the medicine try to fix the problem, in the same 
> way that a lot of effort aim the founding of the cure for cancer.
> But........what is going on here? Why some people have a 
> genetic tendency to catch such abnormality? or cancer?

the ability to distinguish between "healthy function with
unusual form" and "functional problems" seems to be one
with which humans are having difficulty. judging a book
by its cover (PREJUDICE) is one of the more difficult
ethical errors we seem to be facing.

with the condition of intersexuality we are not talking
about something which is "catching" or even in many cases
a (physical) "problem". the 'problem' is in the minds of
the parents and the community which cannot accept the fact
that their gender roles are stereotyped beyond the naturally-
occurring birth forms. 

that is, your exalted tidy "dyad" is a FICTION, organically,
where human beings are concerned, and those babies born with
ambiguous genitalia are EXCEPTIONS to your dogmas,
symbolically representing something for which you cannot
account, except to adjust your theology (thus my admittedly
facetious suggestion that they constitute your 'Satan' --
I tend to think of Satan as an Hermaphrodite and server
Hir as my religion, so I'm a bit biased in this area ;>).

> What is in fact the genetic information that an individual 
> brings from conception? Why such genetic information and 
> not another one?..............bud luck? It is our genetic 
> pool a kind of lottery?

no, it is a spectrum of combination influenced by what we,
in our ignorance, regard as 'random events'.

> I believe , according with some esoteric traditions, that 
> our genetic information is a vehicle of the Law of Karma. 
> In other words , what we are at the moment of conception 
> is not randomly. Our present life is the consequences of 
> what what we were before.............

and here is one of the real problems of this karma ideology:
it can lead to people blaming someone THEY consider to be a
'victim' of something which they don't understand. it can
lead to a moral condemnation due to ignorance of a phenomenon
which surpasses their biological knowledge. here is a CLEAR
example of xenophobia and the amplification of it which the
ideas about "karmic influences from previous births" can 
promote. it is very sad and I oppose it.

> And intersexuality as many other physical and psychological 
> diseases are increasing exponentially....

please substantiate your claim that
	
	1) intersexuality is a disease
	2) it is increasing exponentially
	
> and all we see around us is a human race dying slowly 
> without hope. 

please explain how many people have died from intersexuality.
also contrast and compare the number of deaths related to
the 'fixing' of this 'problem' (including suicides of those
whose forced sexual reassignment has inspired serious
depression).

> Those who have study seriously White Tantrism and
> practice it, know that sexual abuse is the source of 
> the decadence of our race, 

unfortunately those who make claims about White Tantrism
don't seem to know much about biology, even while also
making claims about biology, combining it with fantasy
speculation about 'the karmic justification of travesty'.

> and that is why I do not have personal problems of 
> talking openly about infrasexualism, because if the 
> word can be use wrongly, also the silence can make us 
> accomplice of a crime.


you may well talk openly about it, but you are associating
a jumble of different human social behaviours, physical
atypicalitions, diseases, and forms of violence. your
association is based on ignorance and prejudice, apparently
derived from outdated and disproven biological standards.
all in the support of your favoured mythology.

> When we talk of the primitive Elohim, we are talking in 
> fact of a human race that was not even entirely physical, 
> a race of Super-Men, a race of conscious people. The 
> separation of sexes mark the begining of the 
> materialization of the physical world, event that happens 
> according with all the great occultists, millions of years 
> ago in the third root race Lemur.

there is no evidence for these 'root races'. they were 
perpetuated by Blavatsky and her Theosophical Society. they 
are examples of bigotry, are associated with Hitlerian ideas 
of racial supremacy, and Neitzschean elitist concepts quite 
probably extending beyond his original intention (in the 
realm of genetics). 

"all the great occultists" do not agree on this point. if
you'd like to substantiate at least this last claim with a
quote from the occultists you consider "great" who DID
agree with your assertion I'd like to see it. thanks.

nagasiva

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