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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Subject: Balanone: Satanism/PoDkns (Was Re: Just an Opinion) Date: 16 Jan 1996 11:01:41 -0800 [from alt.pagan: Balanone@tefnut.gigo.com (Balanone)] On Jan 08, 1996, gwen@wave.park.wy.us responded to my earlier comments Re: Just an Opinion Bal>I wouldn't call the Prince of Darkness an "underworld" deity, since I Bal>generally "place" the deity into the night sky, among the stars, rather Bal>than under the ground. I would agree with the "left hand path" Bal>characteristic, viewing the Left Hand Path as that path of extreme Bal>individuality and independence from everything (more extreme as you Bal>veer more to the left). gw> When you say you "`place' the deity into the night sky," do gw> you mean you envision that he lives among the stars? Do you gw> mean he is a particular constellation to you? Could you gw> explain this to me? No, none of the above. When I think of / communicate with the Prince of Darkness I generally "see" him as non-directional -- not tied to a 3-D locati into the night sky. I feel that's more of an emotional projection of mine (the night sky is beautiful, empowering) and nothing to do with the Prince at all. gw> Belanone -- Yes, dear Gwan. ;-) sorry, the misspelling of my alias struck me as funny. gw> Thank you for your thoughtful, rational post. I am gw> appreciating very much this opportunity to decide for myself gw> without a Xtian overseer that what you say completely gw> refutes what they say about you. gw> Would this be a fair definition? gw> A Satanist is a pagan who seeks to control and modify life gw> to suit himself; the deity he respects is the Prince of gw> Darkness, who may be a conglomerate containing more than one gw> entity, representing those who rebel against the notion that gw> people need to obey or worship any deity. Prince of gw> Darkness does not equal Satan; however, Xtians have for so gw> long labeled his followers as Satanists that this label is gw> general (even though false). This deity does not consider gw> himself, nor is he considered by his followers, to be more gw> important than his followers, who are ceremonial magicians gw> that feel free to do whatever is pleasurable with no threat gw> hanging over them, from an independent, intelligent place gw> within self-growth of individuality with as little contact gw> with society as is possible . It's a good start, but there are problems. gw> A Satanist is a pagan Many Satanists are (neo)pagans, and many are not. gw> who seeks to control and modify life to suit himself; Good. gw> the deity he respects is the Prince of Darkness, Good, but some Satanists view the Prince of Darkness as a symbol or other ideaistic form rather than a deity or being, and few who see him as a being would use the term "deity." gw> who may be a conglomerate containing more than one entity, Better: who has been interpreted in many different ways, with different names, in different cultures. gw> representing those who rebel against the notion that gw> people need to obey or worship any deity. Good. gw> Prince of gw> Darkness does not equal Satan; however, Xtians have for so gw> long labeled his followers as Satanists that this label is gw> general (even though false). Good. gw> This deity does not consider gw> himself, nor is he considered by his followers, to be more gw> important than his followers, That's a good description of his followers' views, but not necessarily the views of the Prince of Darkness himself. IMO, the PoD considers himself supremely important, more important than his followers, just as I consider myself supremely important, more important than even the PoD. gw> who are ceremonial magicians Many of us are, but many of us are not. gw> that feel free to do whatever is pleasurable with no threat gw> hanging over them, from an independent, intelligent place gw> within self-growth of individuality Very good. gw> with as little contact with society as is possible. No, there can be and often is much contact with society. I'm a member of two professional societies, two or three social organizations, a volunteer in a neighborhood group, a respected and popular manager in the company I work for, a participant on Internet and FIDO, etc. I'm not bound by many of the restrictions imposed on/by society (ie: I see them, and I can cross those boundaries whenever I choose), but I do spend much time within modern society. gw> May I ask a couple more questions, please? Sure. Answers: $1.00 -- Good answers: $10.00 -- Correct answers: $100.00 -- dumb looks are still free. :-) gw> Do you use a circle for protection (and to hold in what you gw> want held in) when you're working? No. There's nothing in the occult arena as powerful as I am in my own space, so there's no need for protection. gw> Do you invoke entities to help you? Yes, I'll invoke/evoke entities when appropriate. gw> Do you ever invoke the Prince of Darkness? Regularly. gw> Would you say that most Satanists (nasty word - you need a gw> new one) work individually? Yes. Solitary or mostly solitary Satanists are more common than solitaires in the rest of the neopagan movement (of which there are many). gw> Would you call yourself a ceremonial magician? Yes, though I'm less restricted in my ceremonies than most. gw> I'm trying to decide how to define gw> that, as well. So far it goes something like: A ceremonial gw> magician is one that invokes entities or gods in personal or gw> comradic rituals in order to obtain their protection and aid gw> in whatever magickal order of business is at hand. Better (and more applicable to Satanic ceremonies): A ceremonial magician is one that employs ceremony as a means for invoking or evoking and directing magical energies. gw> I think of the lefthand path in a different way than you do. gw> To me there are magicians focused on power and they take it gw> and use it without the balance of knowledge. They really gw> are much less powerful than mages who know power is gw> limitless for those who know it, which they can't know gw> because they've been so busy seeking power they forgot to gw> learn anything. Knowledge is power. So far, so good. gw> A balanced mage works gw> the left and the right, the taking in and putting forth of gw> redirected energy, the female and the male aspects of gw> magick. Those who lean toward the lefthand path are just a gw> tad powermad IMHO. You seem to be looking at right and/or left hand paths as a /source/ of power. I look at the right/left hand paths more as a general philosophy of life. The power itself, the knowledge, the magic, etc., are all tools, and can be used by anyone with the intelligence and will to seek, find, and use them. The philosophy directs the person's personal progress (ie: what are their goals). IMO, power for power's sake is a goal not of the right nor left hand paths, but instead a childish goal of too many people without a higher philosophy. gw> But I do see what you are saying, and gw> agree with everything you've said about individuality and gw> independence and a sort of political left.We're making progress. :-) gw> Do you believe the Prince of Darkness has always existed? gw> Is he self-created? Yes, I believe he's self-created. Though that seems to imply that no, he didn't always exist, it's very possible that his views/experiences of time are different from ours, and that in our space/time continuum he has always existed. gw> If these other entities exist are they his supporters? gw> You couldn't really call them minions or gw> followers if he doesn't believe anyone is below him, right? gw> So maybe they should be called his companions? Are these gw> entities also deities? Or are they the dead? Or other gw> spirits of some sort, like "spirit of night," etc.? There you've lost me. I'm not sure which types of entities you're referring to here. I believe that just about all spirits, deities, etc., are creations, powerful creations perhaps, but still creations of either the Prince of Darkness or of mankind. Some therefore are created as companions, others as tools. Others (created by mankind) could even be enemies of the PoD. gw> Thanks again for assisting in my education. It's been fun. Balanone PP FidoNet: Balanone at 1:203/2019 PODS: Balanone at 93:9303/2019 Internet: Balanone@tefnut.gigo.com ... Always sweep the floor before engraving important messages. ___ TagDude 0.87 [Unregistered] with 12691 taglines. -- : Fidonet: Balanone 1:203/2019 .. speaking for only myself. : Internet: Balanone@tefnut.gigo.com -- To ensure my response CC all public replies to email (READ alt.magick.tyagi) (emailed replies may be posted) * http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html INTENTIONAL .SIG PROTEST: FUCK SHIT PISS COCKSUCKER MOTHERFUCKER TITS CUNT
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