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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Subject: Balanone: Satanism/PoDkns (Was Re: Just an Opinion)
Date: 16 Jan 1996 11:01:41 -0800

[from alt.pagan: Balanone@tefnut.gigo.com (Balanone)]

On Jan 08, 1996,
gwen@wave.park.wy.us responded to my earlier comments
Re: Just an Opinion

 Bal>I wouldn't call the Prince of Darkness an "underworld" deity, since I
 Bal>generally "place" the deity into the night sky, among the stars, rather
 Bal>than under the ground. I would agree with the "left hand path"
 Bal>characteristic, viewing the Left Hand Path as that path of extreme
 Bal>individuality and independence from everything (more extreme as you
 Bal>veer more to the left). 

gw> When you say you "`place' the deity into the night sky," do
gw> you mean you envision that he lives among the stars?  Do you
gw> mean he is a particular constellation to you?  Could you
gw> explain this to me? 

No, none of the above. When I think of / communicate with the Prince
of Darkness I generally "see" him as non-directional -- not tied to a 3-D
locati
into the night sky. I feel that's more of an emotional projection of mine
(the night sky is beautiful, empowering) and nothing to do with the
Prince at all.




gw> Belanone --

Yes, dear Gwan.       ;-) sorry, the misspelling of my alias 
                          struck me as funny.

gw> Thank you for your thoughtful, rational post.  I am
gw> appreciating very much this opportunity to decide for myself
gw> without a Xtian overseer that what you say completely
gw> refutes what they say about you.       

gw> Would this be a fair definition?  

gw> A Satanist is a pagan who seeks to control and modify life
gw> to suit himself; the deity he respects is the Prince of
gw> Darkness, who may be a conglomerate containing more than one
gw> entity, representing those who rebel against the notion that
gw> people need to obey or worship any deity.  Prince of
gw> Darkness does not equal Satan; however, Xtians have for so
gw> long labeled his followers as Satanists that this label is
gw> general (even though false).  This deity does not consider
gw> himself, nor is he considered by his followers, to be more
gw> important than his followers, who are ceremonial magicians
gw> that feel free to do whatever is pleasurable with no threat
gw> hanging over them, from an independent, intelligent place
gw> within self-growth of individuality with as little contact
gw> with society as is possible .

It's a good start, but there are problems.

gw> A Satanist is a pagan 

Many Satanists are (neo)pagans, and many are not.

gw> who seeks to control and modify life to suit himself; 

Good.

gw> the deity he respects is the Prince of Darkness, 

Good, but some Satanists view the Prince of Darkness as a symbol or
other ideaistic form rather than a deity or being, and few who see him
as a being would use the term "deity."

gw> who may be a conglomerate containing more than one entity, 

Better: who has been interpreted in many different ways, with different
names, in different cultures.

gw> representing those who rebel against the notion that
gw> people need to obey or worship any deity.

Good.

gw> Prince of
gw> Darkness does not equal Satan; however, Xtians have for so
gw> long labeled his followers as Satanists that this label is
gw> general (even though false).

Good.

gw> This deity does not consider
gw> himself, nor is he considered by his followers, to be more
gw> important than his followers, 

That's a good description of his followers' views, but not necessarily
the views of the Prince of Darkness himself. IMO, the PoD considers
himself supremely important, more important than his followers, just
as I consider myself supremely important, more important than even
the PoD.

gw> who are ceremonial magicians

Many of us are, but many of us are not.

gw> that feel free to do whatever is pleasurable with no threat
gw> hanging over them, from an independent, intelligent place
gw> within self-growth of individuality 

Very good.

gw> with as little contact with society as is possible.

No, there can be and often is much contact with society. I'm a member
of two professional societies, two or three social organizations, a
volunteer in a neighborhood group, a respected and popular manager in
the company I work for, a participant on Internet and FIDO, etc. 
I'm not bound by many of the restrictions imposed on/by society (ie:
I see them, and I can cross those boundaries whenever I choose), but
I do spend much time within modern society.



gw> May I ask a couple more questions, please?  

Sure.  Answers: $1.00 -- Good answers: $10.00 -- Correct answers:
$100.00 -- dumb looks are still free.    :-)


gw> Do you use a circle for protection (and to hold in what you
gw> want held in) when you're working?  

No. There's nothing in the occult arena as powerful as I am in my own
space, so there's no need for protection. 

gw> Do you invoke entities to help you?  

Yes, I'll invoke/evoke entities when appropriate.

gw> Do you ever invoke the Prince of Darkness? 

Regularly.

gw> Would you say that most Satanists (nasty word - you need a
gw> new one) work individually?  

Yes. Solitary or mostly solitary Satanists are more common than 
solitaires in the rest of the neopagan movement (of which there
are many).

gw> Would you call yourself a ceremonial magician?  

Yes, though I'm less restricted in my ceremonies than most.

gw> I'm trying to decide how to define
gw> that, as well.  So far it goes something like:  A ceremonial
gw> magician is one that invokes entities or gods in personal or
gw> comradic rituals in order to obtain their protection and aid
gw> in whatever magickal order of business is at hand.

Better (and more applicable to Satanic ceremonies): A ceremonial
magician is one that employs ceremony as a means for invoking or
evoking and directing magical energies.

gw> I think of the lefthand path in a different way than you do.
gw> To me there are magicians focused on power and they take it
gw> and use it without the balance of knowledge.  They really
gw> are much less powerful than mages who know power is
gw> limitless for those who know it, which they can't know
gw> because they've been so busy seeking power they forgot to
gw> learn anything.  Knowledge is power.  

So far, so good.

gw> A balanced mage works
gw> the left and the right, the taking in and putting forth of
gw> redirected energy, the female and the male aspects of
gw> magick.  Those who lean toward the lefthand path are just a
gw> tad powermad IMHO.  

You seem to be looking at right and/or left hand paths as a /source/
of power. I look at the right/left hand paths more as a general 
philosophy of life. The power itself, the knowledge, the magic, etc.,
are all tools, and can be used by anyone with the intelligence and
will to seek, find, and use them. The philosophy directs the person's
personal progress (ie: what are their goals). 

IMO, power for power's sake is a goal not of the right nor left hand 
paths, but instead a childish goal of too many people without a
higher philosophy.

gw> But I do see what you are saying, and
gw> agree with everything you've said about individuality and
gw> independence and a sort of political left.   

We're making progress.  :-)

gw> Do you believe the Prince of Darkness has always existed? 
gw> Is he self-created?

Yes, I believe he's self-created. Though that seems to imply that no,
he didn't always exist, it's very possible that his views/experiences
of time are different from ours, and that in our space/time continuum
he has always existed.

gw> If these other entities exist are they his supporters? 
gw> You couldn't really call them minions or
gw> followers if he doesn't believe anyone is below him, right? 
gw> So maybe they should be called his companions?  Are these
gw> entities also deities?  Or are they the dead?  Or other
gw> spirits of some sort, like "spirit of night," etc.? 

There you've lost me.  I'm not sure which types of entities you're
referring to here. I believe that just about all spirits, deities,
etc., are creations, powerful creations perhaps, but still creations
of either the Prince of Darkness or of mankind.  Some therefore
are created as companions, others as tools. Others (created by mankind)
could even be enemies of the PoD. 

gw> Thanks again for assisting in my education.

It's been fun.

Balanone
   PP

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