THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
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To: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy,alt.atheism,alt.religion.islam,alt.zen
From: "Ned Ludd" 
Subject: Re: So what's with God's names?
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 07:52:11 -0500

Abdullah  wrote in message
news:aar6fh$d14s6$1@ID-31123.news.dfncis.de...
>
> 053.019  Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza,
> 053.020  And another, the third (goddess), Manat?

  Excellent!  Aren't those the Satanic verses?  Aren't those the
verses (and one following them) that Mohammad renounced a few
days after speaking them, claiming that they had been dictated
to him by Satan?

  The passage in Rushdie's book concerning their utterance is as
follows:

 At this point, without any trace of hesitation or doubt, he
 recites two further verses. 'Have you thought upon Lat and
 Uzza, and Manat, the third, the other?' - After the first
 verse, Hind gets to her feet; the Grandee of Jahilia is
 already standing very straight.  And Mahound, with silenced
 eyes, recites: 'They are the exalted birds, and their
 intercession is desired indeed.'  As the noise - shouts,
 cheers, scandal, cries of devotion to the goddess Al-Lat -
 swells and bursts within the marquee the already astonished
 congregation beholds the doubly sensational spectacle of the
 Grandee Abu Simbel placing his thumbs upon the lobes of his
 ears, fanning out the fingers of both hands and uttering in
 a loud voice the formula: 'Allahu Akbar'.  After which he falls
 to his knees and presses a deliberate forehead to the ground.
 His wife, Hind, immediately follows his lead. - pg. 114





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From: "Ned Ludd" 
Newsgroups: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy,alt.atheism,alt.religion.islam,alt.zen
Subject: Re: So what's with God's names?
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:32:37 -0500
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Abdullah  wrote in message
news:aat8fb$dj28c$1@ID-31123.news.dfncis.de...

Abdullah:
>> 053.019  Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza,
>> 053.020  And another, the third (goddess), Manat?

Ned:
> Excellent!  Aren't those the Satanic verses?

Abdullah:
> Oh those high flying claims!!
> http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/sverses.html
>

  Thanks for the website.  I read all of it.  Interesting but very
unconvincing.  The gist of the author's argument is that Mohammad's
abrogation of the satanic verses did not occur immediately or shortly
after he spoke them, as Rushdie suggests (because that overwhelming
sign of weakness on his part caused his uncle to be assassinated the
following day and an assassination attempt to be made on Mohammad
himself), but occurred NINE years later.  And that no religious
population would have tolerated the abrogation of a divinely-revealed
scripture nine years after it was spoken.

  The author repeats this assertion at least four times, as if he
is talking himself into it, or hoping that by mere repetition, it
will be accepted and believed:

First:

 If this is so, then it implies that the 'Satanic' verses were not
 detected or for some reason no mention was made about the alleged
 interpolation of the verses for five or six years and only
 afterwards was the Prophet(P) admonished for it. Can any sensible
 person believe that the interpolation occurs today, while the
 admonition takes place six years later and the abrogation of the
 interpolated verses is publicly announced after nine years.

Second:

 Can anybody who knows about the Qur'ân, its history and revelation,
 understand and explain how the incident of interpolation was allowed
 to be tolerated for six years and also why the offensive 'verses'
 were not abrogated until after nine years?

Third:

 The implication of this argument is that since the abrogating verses
 were revealed nine years after the original event, that would mean
 that for nine years Muslims had been asking Lat, Manat and Uzza for
 intercession! In other words outright idolatry resulting from
 compromised monotheistic beliefs. It is therefore quite pretentious
 to suggest any historicity in the notion that Muslims had been
 asking Lat, Manat and Uzza for intercession over the span of almost
 a decade.

Fouth:

 The story which we have summarized in the beginning suggests that
 Muhammad(P) did not realize his fault until God admonished him six
 years later and that the matter was rectified perhaps another two
 and a half years after. In the meantime the Muslims were supposedly
 asking Allat, Manat and Uzza for intercession! Had the genuine state
 of affairs truly been this ridiculous, it would have been impossible
 for Muhammad(P) to have maintained such a loyal following.


  First of all, religious people will believe and accept the most
ridiculous, illogical and absurd garbage that their priests shovel
down their throats.  Look at the Catholic church and what its
adherents believe - that God is three things (a god, a man, and a
spirit) and that Jesus was simultaneously a god and a man, that
wafers and wine turn into flesh and blood when they eat them, etc.
For several centuries that religion let its people eat whatever
they wanted.  Then the Vatican announced that if you ate meat on
Friday it was a sin and you would go to hell.  Then a few centuries
later they said it WASN'T a sin and you wouldn't go to hell.  And
all throughout that ridiculous hypocrisy the faithful believed it
and obeyed it.  (And continued going to church.)

  NO religion ever went out of business because of the stupidity
and illogic of its tenets or scripture!

  Second, the author bases his tenuous conjecture of a nine-year
delay on one unproven inference.  Here it is:

 It can easily be gleaned from the story that the incident of
 reciting the 'Satanic' verses and the consequent prostration
 of the disbelievers in the Ka'bah happened after the first
 batch of Muslims had migrated to Abyssinia. This migration,
 according to all the reliable sources, occurred in the month
 of Rajab of the fifth year of the Prophetic call or about eight
 years before the Hijrah to Madinah. Therefore, the incident
 must have happened close to this date and not long after the
 migration to Abyssinia.


  This is conjecture.  In the face of this conjecture, as even the
article points out, you have at least two well-know Islamic historians,
one who lived 200 years after Mohammad and the other 300 years after
Mohammed, relating the story of the satanic verses as it existed in
the lore of Arab/Islamic people.

  And what of the verses themselves?  Why are Al-Lat and Uzza and
Menat mentioned at all?  Here is the translaion you posted:

053.001  By the Star when it goes down,-
053.002  Your Companion (Muhammad pbuh) is neither astray nor being
         misled.
053.003  Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
053.004  It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
053.005  He was taught by one Mighty in Power (Angel Gabrail),
053.006  Endued with Wisdom: for he  appeared (in stately form);
053.007  While he was in the highest part of the horizon:
053.008  Then he approached and came closer,
053.009  And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;
053.010  So did (God) convey the inspiration to His Servant- (conveyed)
         what He (meant) to convey.
053.011  The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that
         which he saw.
053.012  Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw?
053.013  For indeed he saw him at a second descent,
053.014  Near the Lote-tree beyond which none may pass:
053.015  Near it is the Garden of Abode.
053.016  Behold, the Lote-tree was shrouded (in mystery unspeakable!)
053.017  (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!
053.018  For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!
053.019  Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza,
053.020  And another, the third (goddess), Manat?
053.021  What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?
053.022  Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!
053.023  These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and
         your fathers,-  for which God has sent down no authority
         (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their
         own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them
         Guid ance from their Lord!
053.024  Nay, shall man have (just) anything he hankers after?
053.025  But it is to God that the End and the Beginning (of all
         things) belong.


  Why does this small passage assert FOUR TIMES that the Prophet is
not lying to us or being led astray:

- Your Companion Muhammad is neither astray nor being misled.
- The Prophet's mind and heart in no way falsified that which he saw.
- Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw?
- His sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!

  How UNBELIEVEABLY coincidental that FOUR references to the Prophet
NOT lying occur in one small section of verses which are at the center
of such controversy over fraud in this fundamental Islamic scripture.

  And what is the verse saying specially about the three goddesses?
Look at the above, and also here is the translation of the same verses
from the website you posted:

 Have ye seen Lat and 'Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat?
 [These are the high-flying ones, whose intercession is to be hoped
 for!] What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female? Behold,
 such would be indeed a division most unfair! These are nothing but
 names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah
 has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but
 conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has
 already come to them Guidance from their Lord! [Qur'ân 53:19-23]

  WHAT the hell is being talked about here?  Does this make sense to
you? (Not that scripture ever necessarily makes sense.)  Even removing
the 'satanic' verses (in brackets above), what is being said here?:

 Have ye seen Lat and 'Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat?
 What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female? Behold, such
 would be indeed a division most unfair! These are nothing but names
 which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has
 sent down no authority (whatever).


  Almost Buddhist in its declaration of mere names.

                                                            Ned