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To: dreamer@ods.sol.net
From: tyagi mordred nagasiva 
Subject: Re: Satanism, Neopaganism (1)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 23:25:34 -0700 (PDT)

Kali Yuga 49941004

Hello, 

You write:

|>|>Again, in the strictest sense, Wicca and Satanism are two very different
|>|>belief systems.
|
|>|*IS* Wicca a 'belief system'?  Is Satanism?  I don't have evidence that
|>|this is the case.  Perhaps you could describe for me what you think that
|>|these 'beliefs' are (for each, since you know them to be different)?
|
|Tyagi, I would be happy to discourse with you privately, if you would
|supply me with this mystical document about the GMC 

I've posted it more than once.  I'll send it to you after this.


|and if you would also supply me with YOUR definitions of words that 
|contradict the normal definitions.

Read the article on the GMC and then ask me direct for defs if you don't
understand my meanings within it.  I also have an essay on Wicca and
Witchcraft which offers an entirely different perspective (you see, I
don't retain consistent beliefs :>).


|Please understand that I am, by no means, an expert on Wicca, and while
|the occasional Satanist has passed through my BBS I am not an expert on
|them, nor will I ever be, having no interest in something I don't
|believe in.  

Understood.


|I rejected Christ and God, and all the trappings that come
|with them, including Satan and his minions, etc..

Ok.


|Define "belief system", please.  

'Patterned construct of persistent conceptualizations, often associated
with a particular "ism"'.


|From my understanding of the phrase,
|both Wicca and Satanism fall under this category.

Then you have an uncommon understanding on Wicca, which relies more on
a similarity of values and perhaps ritual styles than beliefs, as well
as upon Satanism, which varies considerably in all of its aspects (aside,
perhaps from its centrality upon its common value of rebellion and egotism
- see the alt.satanismFAQ).


|I would be foolish to try and fully describe Wicca, as I have, only
|recently, begun to study it, and even more recently sought the guidance
|of a high priestess with whom I am friends.  

There are lots of books out, lots of etexts available, and many different
perspectives on it.  I'd be happy to provide you with my favorite, though
I don't claim that is true or absolute.


|I would be even more
|foolish to try to describe Satanism, which you are infinitely more
|familiar with than I am.

I don't know about 'infinitely', but I'm beginning a serious study and
I'm making some headway, giving the Neopagans a run for their money. :>


|My objection to your classification is based, primarily, on the fact
|that many Wiccans, indeed pagans, reject the concept of Lucifer/Satan.

See the correspondence I recently posted between Samuel Glasby and myself.
I agree with you here but feel that these Wiccans don't realize that there
have been associations with Lucifer and Witchcraft for years, including
that which is today popular (by Leland, for example). 

Then if you take into consideration that Gardner was fusing many Hermetic
teachings together (Theosophy, Freemasonry, Rosicrucia) into a phantastic
resurgence, even Wicca begins to look somewhat Christian. :>  These things
are important to consider when stating that there is an absolute division
between the two (Wicca and Christianity or Witchcraft and Satanism).


|The confusion comes in from the fact that different people view it
|differently.  Some feel that they worship a pantheon of gods, varying in
|number, while others only worship two, and still others worship
|different facets of one god.  

I agree completely.


|To claim that all, or even a good portion
|(comma there, please, heh), of Wiccans are Satanists simply based upon
|this interesting link you found between Wicca and Lucifer strikes me as
|pushing your luck a bit.  

Makes about as much sense as Neopagans calling Satanists ritual abusers,
which is what the Church of All Worlds is doing and is why I continue to
cross-post this to their newsgroup.  Defining another person's religion
is quite rude, isn't it?  I don't define Satanism *for others* really.  I
just make controversial statements about how *I* feel about the various
traditions, which I see as forming a composite (Christian, Wiccan, Satanist).

I understand that most won't agree with me.  Mine is but a model, and a
weird one at that.  Dammit if I don't find it works, though!


|While pagans in general may acknowledge the
|dark god(s) it does not mean that it is your Satan, or that Satan even
|exists.  

Now you get into trouble.  'My Satan'?  'Existence of Satan'?  Does Pan
'exist'?  I doubt that any god can be shown either to exist or not to
exist.  I suggest that the original use of the term 'pagan' was in
direct contrast to 'Christian' and ought include any worship of any god
outside Jehovah.


|And you will doubtless never prove this on this mortal coil, as
|I will similarly be unable to prove myself beyond doubt.  

Yup.  So why bother trying?  Why not just tell our tales, have some fun
and let people define their own religion?  I know that Neopagans want to
do this, but they appear to be hypocritical when it comes to Satanists,
who are too close to their original roots (in terms of this generation
of Neopagans, not in terms of the succession of religions, of course).


|You can
|believe what you will, as can I, but the proof is discovered after
|death, and then it's too late...;)

No way.  It'll never be discovered.  No such thing.  I choose not to bother
believing in anything consistently.  Makes my life much easier.

I'd like to post this email, but I'll understand if you don't want me to.
Please advise.

tyagi nagasiva
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
 ('the wickedest person in cyberspace')