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To: dhummer@netcom.com (Joy Williams)
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (tyagi - TOKUS)
Subject: Re: Neopaganism and Satanism
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 23:22:46 -0700 (PDT)

Kali Yuga 49941005

Dear Joy,

You quote me and write:

|> ...reaction to the Gardnerian authorized line....  My reference was
|> to practice and belief, the first of which Gardnerians and Roman Catholics 
|> seem set upon, the latter seemingly more prevalent in some Protestant and 
|> CAW circles (if the people whom I've met are any indication)....  

|To become clergy or Scion there is a level of commitment, because the 
|Church naturally wants to know that you are willing to show some sign of 
|dedication, before you go out representing them.

Naturally.  It sounds to me like my analogy was fairly accurate.


|Well, my experience with  Protestantism shows me that CAW is SO removed 
|from any resemblance (I grew up a generic Protestant, 
|Baptist/Presbyterian/Methodist) that it has got to be one of the 
|strangest anaologies I have ever seen.  

An analogy requires a comparison, and mine was concerning the pair of
Catholic/Protestant with the pair Gardnerian/CAW.  I didn't say that
CAW *was* Protestant (except in minor jest and not directly. ;>).


|The lack of vitality and ritual, 
|ecstasy in Protestantis, etc, which is often very prevalent in 
|Catholocism, is definitely nothing like the CAW.  

I think that ritual varies and that some Protestant rites are quite 
'vital'.  It seems that you have not witnessed these.


|We are pretty intense in ritual, highly ecstatic...

Ever been to revival meetings, snake-handling, gospel choir meetings,
or High Latin Mass by dedicated priests?


|> Ok, so you know who is and who isn't a Satanist.  In that
|> case why don't the Christians know who is and who isn't a Satanist?  
|
|Tyagi, you know as well as I do that Xtians don't know much about 
|anything.  

I think you generalize overmuch.  I consider myself Christian and I
don't appreciate such statements.


|It is their erroneous preconceptions and beliefs that are the 
|dangerous things

I agree that it is erroneous preconception generally and perhaps belief 
itself which is at the root of most human catastrophe.  I don't think 
that this resides within the confines of Christianity or any other 
single religious establishment.  If you do, then I think you may be naive.


[Re: determining who is and who is not a Satanist]

|> Why are you better qualified to make that determination? 
|
| maybe cuz I was an Xtian and I saw the stupidity of my ways....
|I done saw the light, and became a "born again Pagan."  Who better 
|qualified than a heretic, Tyagi?

So you know about Neopaganism now.  That doesn't make you better
qualified to speak about a tradition from which you did not come
nor to which you have not gone (Satanism).  Just because you were a 
stupid Christian it doesn't mean that all Christians are stupid.


|>They claim that all other religions are the devices of the Evil One 
|>(of course). 
|
|What do you mean "of course?"  

I meant that I figured you knew this.


|Don't tell me that you subscribe to their point of view on this, do you 
|Tyagi?  

Oh you're too much, Joy.  Really, sometimes I don't understand what you're
ready to believe.  I think that all coherent perspectives show an aspect of
the truth, whether fundamentalist Christian, esoteric Buddhist, or middle-
of-the-road Wiccan.


|Come, on, tyagi, thou speakest with a forked tongue....but then again 
|maybe that is your intent.

You're projecting again, I think.


|...just understand something, once and for all, Tyagi.  

Please understand how this type of address sounds to me like you are
attempting to force upon me your truth.  I understood the text below
before you wrote it.  That you did not know I understood it tells me
that you don't read my words very carefully or at least that we have
very different backgrounds.  So be it.


|Whether or not your brand of what you call "satanism" is really 
|Hindu/Neo-Pagan/Kaliism, many Neo-Pagans just do not want to be 
|brushed in the same stroke as what the Xtians regard as
|Satanism.  

This much we both understand.


|That's WHY we don't call ourselves Satanists.  

Unfortunately true.


|Besides the fact that most of us honestly have no desire to give him 
|any credence or reality....

You do so by your negation.  Try not to think of pink elephants.  By
stating what you reject and putting energy into that rejection, you are
maintaining the fantasy of the Urban Legend now called 'Satanism' by
the establishment Christians.  There is an entire movement out there
which is co-opting this Urban Legend and you are helping the Christians
to maintain it by continuing to believe it and rebelling against it.

The problem is that you are neglecting that movement which is resisting
the Urban Legend, and thus you are at odds with it.  Instead of using
the old co-opting techniques against the Christians (as has been quite
successfully done with 'Witches'), you appear to join with your kin
in supporting the same, tired Christian Right, masquerading as 'Ritual
Abuse Experts' and 'Satanic Abuse Reference Personnel'.

I'm only here trying to figure out why.  My job is not to convert anyone.
I'm just curious why the Neopagans are aligned with the fundi-Christians.
You claim that CAW is 'so far from Protestantism' (and presumably the rest
of Christianity), yet I can't shake the feeling that y'all haven't let go
of your Christian roots (that's right, I wasn't raised Christian).  You
appear to want to support the Urban Legends, aiding the persecution and
empowering the tools of the naive law enforcement and religious 
intolerance.


|no matter what your interpretation of Satan is, Tyagi, whether
|you feel that it is Nature, or Gaia, or whatever....the cat you sleep
|with, most of us don't want to be killed by a rabid fundie because he
|misinterprets what we are about because a few people who may agree
|fundamentally with Neo-Paganism, but insist on calling themselves
|"Satanists" are only feeding him the hate frenzy that he wants to undulge
|in, and further the persecution.  

You really think that Satanists are feeding this?  Hehehehe, well, I'm
not sure you're wrong, but I get the impression, with a small amount of
observation, that those who are promoting the support of the Urban Legend
('Satanists are baby-killers, Satanists are ritual abusers, Satanists are
cannibals, Satanists are murdering criminals, Satanists are twisted
Christians') are the ones who are feeding the persecution.  The CAW is an
element of this feeding-frenzy, lending its energies to the Christian
Right in support of false claims, failing to debunk idiotic scare-tactics,
and foisting the brunt of persecution upon another group's shoulders.

My interpretation of Satan is entirely irrelevant.  Your fear *is*
relevant, especially in how you manifest action in response to it.
I know you don't want to be identified as Satanists.  I say that you
are lucky that Satanists exist who don't believe in the Urban Legend
because they can co-opt the entire persecution out from under the
idiotic Christians through propaganda, support of religious freedoms,
and creative religious fabrication.  I say that what I know to be the
Great Martyrdom Cult (unconsciously driven) shall continue its
manifestation of 'Satanists' in *response* to this persecution and if
you are not part of the solution, then *you are part of the problem*.


|If you want to really change things Tyagi, then why don't you just 
|call yourself a Neo-Pagan who recognizes Lucifer/Prometheus as well?  

I don't specifically want to change things myself.  I want to walk
between the religious worlds and work an alchemical spell which brings
people to question their basic values and beliefs, perhaps inspiring a
more accepting and honorable climate among the battling 'Elders'.  I
want to explore the most horrid and heretical aspects of Western religion
(perhaps also its newest faces) and come to understand what the current
'orthodoxy' (30 years, as you say) thinks of it before going on to hear
what it thinks of itself.  I'm a researcher and a philosopher, a Satanist
and a shaman.  I say what I think and feel and I'm honest about it.


|I do.  But I refuse to feed the fundies fire by indulging in calling 
|myself a "satanist" because 

The fundies' fire is not fed by people who use the right names.  It is
fed by telling them that their sick nightmares correspond to some sort
of physical manifestation, which they do not.  The labels are going to
change regardless of what we do.  I'm surprised you haven't seen this.
Yesterday the 'Communist', today the 'Satanist', tomorrow the 'Heretic'.
Abandoning the target-label won't stem the nightmare, it will only move it
away from us, like shaking off a heat-seeking missile.  I want to find
a way to make those missiles duds, Joy, not just send them elsewhere.


|1) I am not, and do not regard him as a God, but rather a mind aspect 
|of Yahweh, and actually as his most prevalent one, and I want 
|absolutely nothing to DO with Yahweh

First so many Neopagans say that they don't 'believe in Satan', and yet
they then go on to talk about 'him' as something or someone who can be
'explained'.  It is illogical, irrational, and it betrays the very real
acknowledgement of your belief.  I know you don't like these gods, but
denying them while you support them through negation will not make them
go away.


|2) I'd rather not be involved with continuing the persecution of many of
|my sisters and brothers who are witches/Neo-Pagans, and are losing jobs,
|homes and children because the stupid fundies think that just because you
|may wear a pentacle that you are a "Satanist." 

I abandoned my beautific pentacle many years ago (or she abandoned me).  
I want you to know that I revere the shape and form of the 5-pointed star.  
Such a form was for me the very manifestation of magick within my life, 
long before I knew one whit about Wicca or what is called 'Paganism' or 
'Neopaganism'.  

I've incorporated the pentagram into my very signature as a reflection of 
the lifestyle I lead which includes posting to 'your' Usenet group in an 
adversarial way, knowing that I'll catch ignorant barbs and attacks upon my 
person by people who feel real hurts as suffered by the Christian orthodoxy.

I understand that our kin are suffering.  I don't think that redirecting
the violators to some other neighborhood is the answer.  Part of my
practice as Satanist is to take the wrath of my kin and attempt to use
it as fuel to assist a birthing of peace.  I hope you will begin to
recognize what I'm about and aid me rather than combating my energies
without trying to understand them.



|> |why call themselves that if they aren't, especially the self proclaimed 
|> |aetheists, who just use the word Satanist to scare  or rebel.
|> 
|> You are the one who says they aren't.  I wonder why you think you have the
|> ability to define it better than they.  Most atheistic Satanists are likely
|> the most dedicated.
|
|Tyagi, Aetheist means you don't believe in any higher, Divine being.

I urge you to consult the alt.atheism FAQ, wherein you shall find that
there are a number of different definitions for 'atheist' (a - without;
theist - god -> godless).  The one which you put forward is only one
among many.  I suggest you learn to spell it and spend some time talking
with the various sorts of atheists before you instruct me about 'what it
means'.


|As opposed to Agnostic, which means you don't know.

Ditto.  There are a number of interpretations here, though you voice the
most popular.


|How can you be dedicated to a "religion" if you don't believe in it?  

Good question!  Some religions aren't 'belief-based'.  Some religions
are less head-centered and are more heart-based or activity-based.  The
ideas are only secondary to the principles of feeling and doing that
are incorporated into the tradition proper.


|Is it just a technique thing?

With respect to Satanism I think it is quite complex and this is part of
why I am undertaking a serious research of it from shore to shore.  


|> Some Witches just use the word to rebel also.  Using
|> a heretical religion to that of our parents can be a very powerful thing.
 
|Certainly some witches do, those who are trying to get "power-over" and 
|shock other people are just childish idiots seeking self-aggrandizing 
|attention, usually because they haven't really understood that they are 
|already Divine.  There are insecure hypocrits everywhere.  (My parents 
|are Pagan, so I'm not following anything heretical to them, just to society).

Yup, and this is true, I think, across the boards where religions are
concerned, even new ones.  Satanism is no exception, and there are of course
(especially!) self-aggrandizers and attention-seekers within the Satanist
trad.  It is more associated with ego, so of course we'd see this within
it. 

I'm unsure of the value of 'shocking other people...because one hasn't
understood that one is divine' (? do I really understand this ?).  It is
easy to condemn children and adolescents, yet how easy is it to attempt
to understand them?  Personally I needed very badly to do the rebelling
I did, and I see a consistent energy-pillar of what I call REVOLUTION in
all living religious traditions.  They are revolutionary because they
must pit themselves against the very real coercive nature of organized
social bodies, especially those which shall or have become the establishment.


|> |"silly Wicken"  Is that a mistype?
|> 
|> Intentional.
|
|Tyagi, hate to say it, but you are the silliest Wicken I've met, if not 
|the only one.  

I take that a very wonderful compliment!  Thanks. :>


|> I'm trying to infuse some critical thought.  It is more to me than a game,
|> Joy, and there are a lot of people who accept their precious principles
|> and dogmas without seriously challenging them.  It's neat to be part of a
|> fad which masquerades as ecological in a country that is fast depleting
|> the world's resources.  Eventually the glimmer wears thin for me I guess.
|
|1.  I hardly consider a movement which has lasted for 30 years + as a "fad."

You are not representative of the majority of people are involved with the
Neopagan movement.  To the extent that urban, middle-class, white people
are 'getting in touch with the earth' through their association with 'earth
religion' while continuing to lead lives which are destructive to that which
they ostensibly worship, so I consider it a 'fad'.  This type of 'religion'
is something about which one fantasizes while one is young and then settles
into mediocre, pre-programmed lives.  

I agree that it might lead to something very wonderful (and I have very
distinct plans about how I'm going to work towards that within this culture),
yet at present I don't see the initiative being taken by those who have
absorbed Hermetic teachings without even comprehending their origins (Wicca)
or by those who experiment with all manner of consciousness-variation in a
manner that tends only to reinforce the worst aspects of our consumerist,
materialist society.
 

|2.  I am very much an environmentalist,  I find myself in a society which 
|does not allow me to function in a comfortable way without useing some 
|resources, but that does NOT mean that I cannot reduce as much as 
|possible and make an attempt to educate.

More power to you.  I am not criticizing you here, but am attempting to
level a very real barb at what I see the to be the weaknesses of the
'earth religions'.  Please do not take my current exploration of Satanism
to be my only interest or life-pursuit.  Within the next 10 years I plan
to become more and more involved in inspiring occult systems which have
living ecological elements.


|3. What do you think this "masquerade" is trying to cover up?

I'm surprised that you are asking the question.  I thought it was obvious
that the masquerade covers up deep conditioning toward consumerist
materialism, hatred of the feminine, and, to a lesser extent, a lack of
dedicated philosophy.


|4. YOU spend FAR too much time on the net, dear Tyagi...when was the last 
|time you walked in Gaia's greenness?  

My time is my business.  It is to me to decide what is too long in what
medium.  I'll thank you to keep to your own about such things.  I don't
consider it pertinent how often I 'visit' 'Gaia's greenness'.  If we all
'visited', 'walked in Gaia's greenness,' I think there'd be a lot less of
it around.  It is not my wish to sully Her by such visits and I would
make of my movement in that realm a rare and cherished gift.
  

|Everyday, I am seeing stupendously LONG posts from you on the net.  
|Either you type 300 words per minute, or you never get out in the world.  

These are documents I've been crafting for a long time.  There is such a
thing as 'database storage'.  It was a multi-part project which is only
recently experiencing some movement.  Each installment occasions renewed
discussion upon a topic which I think has been neglected far too long.


|Take a break, Tyagi....and give our newsgroup a break as well...

There is no 'break' in the Great Work.  There is no 'rest' in the cause
of Our Mother.  I sacrifice myself for Her utterly and enjoy doing it.


|you are monopolizing the group and making people upset.

False.  People can use killfiles and never see me or the topics which I
entertain there (they can use the approxexpr 'satan', for example).

Also, I don't 'make people upset'.  They become upset about my words.
These are just words on a screen.  I mean what I say, but I am not
responsible for the feelings of others no matter how much control and 
manipulation people would aim at me using neurotic weapons of guilt and
shame.

I hear your request.  I ask that you allow me to post this email within
the alt.religion.all-worlds newsgroup as one of the last few articles that
I cross-post there.  I'm about done with that group (since I'll probably
be moving on to more generic pursuits and will not see the direct
connection except to jab again at the ridiculous publication on 'Satanism'
which Otter edits).
 

|Meant totally in friendliness......

:>  I like your approach and your spirit.  I have strong feelings about
these issues and I do not mean to level any attack upon you directly.
I understand that your intent is friendly (this is what it means to me
to have 'perfect trust' in that I continue to assume your good will),
yet I also feel that some of the things you say require my sincere and
enthusiastic reply.  My apologies for any problems this may cause to your
mailbox. :>


|Never thirst!

To never thirst means to have died.  I prefer to thirst and drink.
How else can we truly share water unless we want for that which we
share in our kinship?


|Joy WIlliams
|Church of All Worlds

Does this make it an 'official document'?  Just curious if you are speaking
for the Church here or if you are, as I suspect, merely identifying with it.

tyagi
TOKUS - The Order of K@s Under Satan