THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
	a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.

Subject: Justin Moss Resigns

Look at the BULLSHIT the CoS "administrators" write.

To: satanicreds@egroups.com 

From: "Justin Moss" <agmosstic@hotmail.com>

Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:05:52 GMT 

Fwd: Re: Resignation of Membership  

Justin said: I found this in my inbox today - a response from CoS admin to my email regarding my resignation, and I hereby offer it up to the group for examination. Comments?

Hail Satan!

Justin J. Moss I agmosstic@hotmail.com

From: csatan <Webmaster@churchofsatan.com>

To: "Justin Moss" <agmosstic@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Resignation of Membership 

Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:17:24 -0500  

Dear Mr. Moss:

Justin said: It has come to my attention that you have excommunicated two members of the Priesthood of Mendes, Tani Jantsang and Hr. Vad, for the heresies of trying to make something other than the teachings of Anton LaVey the basis of Satanism.

Gilmore answers: That is an incorrect assumption on your part. The details as to why these individuals no longer hold membership in our organization are far more complex.

SR NOTE: You can view the full details on SR archives or request the exposures. It might end up all on a website for all to see.

Justin said: I do not see how you could remove them for such an action.

Gilmore answers: We didn't.

Justin said: In my opinion, it was a piss-poor reason for removing them. Was it not Anton LaVey who said that Satanism is a religion of change, that the chief duty of every new age is to define its own values and liberties?

Gilmore Answers: Since it is only three years after Anton LaVey's death, we are hardly entering into a "new age" which requires a redefinition of what he established in 1966 and refined up until his death. He certainly wouldn't have tolerated such rashness and misinterpretation of his writings. As we see it, those who spout this nonsense are just rebelling for rebellion's sake, not following a genuine need for change. That is behavior showing a shallow grasp of Satanic principles.

SR NOTE: everyone involved knows that no rebellion happened; people were sick of being walked on by Schlessinger's gang when they had the sanctions of Peter and Peggy to do this. Schlessinger regards them as "his bosses" ergo, what he does, everything he does, comes straight from the administrators - and that is Peter and Peggy. Everyone knew about this, within the COS and even outside of it.

Gilmore continues: And, should current members personally decide that we are in some "new age," then it would be wise to bear LaVey's own words in mind: "When one name is no longer appropriate for a given thing it is only logical to change it to a new one which better fits the subject." We administrators suggest, to those who feel that it is time for a major change to be made in the works of LaVey, that it then makes sense for them to depart the Church of Satan and create their own organization with a new name. For the rest of us, we do not see this as a "new age" beyond the "Age of Satan" declared by LaVey in 1966 c.e. (which is still perfectly embodied in his philosophy) and we think LaVey's ideas are quite sound and we will continue to champion them world-wide. That is the purpose for which he established the Church of Satan.

SR NOTE: no new age. No LHP. No Dark Tradition at all. Corporation with atheists into fascism running the entire show, ripping people for money, luring suckers to join even when they PLAN to kick them out after the check clears.

Justin said: As a history major in college and an aspiring history professor in the future, I fully appreciate what Tani and Vad have tried to do - to give Satanism a historical, sociological, and scientific context.

Gilmore answers: This was being done long before Ms. Jantsang and "Hr. Vad" came on the scene. Recall this passage from "The Satanic Rituals" (first published in 1972): "Satanic Ritual is a blend of Gnostic, Cabalistic, Hermetic, and Masonic elements, incorporating nomenclature and vibratory words of power from virtually every mythos. Though the rituals in this book are representative of different nations, it will be easy to perceive a basic undercurrent through the cultural variants." It has always been a part of the practice of the Church of Satan to trace that "basic undercurrent" throughout world history. In many essays and articles, before and since Jantsang and company, individuals who are de facto Satanists as well as truly Satanic cultural currents have always been explored. The departure of Ms. Jantsang and "Hr. Vad" does not mean that we have ceased in this quest. Any claims that the Church of Satan is tossing away its well-acknowledged historical roots is nonsense, a smokescreen for some other agenda on the part of those making this claim.

SR NOTE: that may be true but until the Dark Doctrines crew came along, Anton and the CoS didn't have a clue about these things or even where to find them. The CoS never did this, not even once did they pursue the Dark Tradition. If ANY org can be credited with having done that, it would be the Temple of Set that left the CoS in 1975 and set up their own organization for study of true magical traditions, such as Vajrayana. The CoS NEVER did this. The CoS has NO historical roots before 1966.

Justin said: But since you have removed them, I see that now you are only interested in being the Personality Cult of Anton LaVey and lords of your own meaningless empire.

Gilmore answers: That is an incorrect statement. You are welcome to your own interpretation, but it is not one that fits the facts as we understand them.

Justin said: And just as a curiousity, I note that Anton LaVey made Tani and Vad members of the Priesthood. If you love LaVey so much, how is it that you see fit to undo his actions?

Gilmore answers: Having spent much time with him (which neither Jantsang, Vad, nor yourself ever did), we know that he would have taken such measures in light of their actions, and probably far more quickly then we have done.

Justin said: You may define Satanism however you want, but I will not remain in an organization that attempts to force its definition of Satanism onto everyone else,

Gilmore answers with a planet full of lies: In fact, Ms. Jantsang and her associates were the folks trying to "force their definition of Satanism" onto other Church of Satan members whom they encountered on line. They would harass any who disagreed with them, calling the "Klippoths" and other similar terms, and then they tried to force them out of the organization through on line (and sometimes off line) harassment. So it was Ms. Jantsang and her clique of followers who were acting in this fashion, not the other way around, as you state above.

SR NOTE: no one that knows any of "Jantsang and followers" would believe that for a second. But COS? They attack Egan, they TRIED to get Tani to attack Egan for "taking the Dark Doctrines." They try to get their followers to attack those who speak truths about Peggy's and Blanche's weight (being fat). They have accused "Jantsang" of having followers, yet 99% of those that joined the CoS due to the Dark Doctrines are total strangers to "Jantsang." They are not followers. "Jantsang" is extremely tolerant and recognizes MANY FORMS of Satanism; and for that reason would NOT attack Egan. If anything, "COS storm troopers" go on "coordinated attacks" of anyone with a different organization and different point of view trying to say they are "not Satanists." It is the CoS, and the CoS ALONE that has gone on the attack every single time. They'd have a hard time convincing ANYONE otherwise! Perhaps a person that lived in a closet all his life and never heard of Satanism MIGHT believe it.

Gilmore continues: It was explained to Ms. Jantsang and her followers that the foundation of membership in the Church of Satan is the philosophy synthesized by Anton LaVey. That is the one thing that all Church of Satan members hold in common. It is up to individual members to build what suits themselves atop this foundation - and the beauty of this bedrock is that it allows for a great diversity in its application, but the common basis remains clear even in such varied personal "structures." All that LaVey required was that those who built divergent structures on his foundation should treat each other with respect. He did not require that all members must like and support each others' efforts, but he did require that they not publicly attack each other. His model for the organization was a "mutual admiration society," wherein if you do not support another member's application of LaVey's philosophy, then you would simply refrain from open conflict with such members. And your perspective, Mr.Moss, is probably limited to what you've seen online.

SR NOTE: online is where it spilled. And that's their core membership.

The administration has seen far more fascinating personal applications from our many thousands of members, most of whom aren't part of the sandbox squabbling seen in the chat rooms and usenet groups, and we support them. People who disagree with the two paragraphs above really have no place in the Church of Satan. That should be obvious for reasons of logic alone. Ms. Jantsang and crew went on a "virtual crusade," appointing themselves as "inquisitors" who felt that it was up to them to determine the validity of other Church of Satan members' applications of Satanism.

SR NOTE: The CoS has less than 400 members in it. Not thousands. Ask Karla, ask Zeena; they had the membership lists. People who joined in 1980 and have long since turned away from Satanism or the COS but who never even bothered to write a "I resign" letter is what they count, when they want to inflate their numbers. The only crusade that was undertaken was solely against the COS's bully club members - again, everyone knew this. One need only remember what they did to John Raptis and what they have been doing to the satan2000 people who are STILL COS MEMBERS! The first people to throw stones in public were the Gidney/Davis clique - and of course Schlessinger's boy Lupo who could do it and deny membership in the COS.

Gilmore continues: They were warned that this was not their purview, and to cease this fascistic, Christian behavior.

SR NOTE: Liars, whopping liars. They? Tani was asked by Peggy to get proof of chat room bullying. Well, Tani got it and the proof led to the TOP of the shit pile. They must have told Andre Schlessinger to behave himself during this time because he was nice. But what other things were dug out? All has been since EXPOSED! The only Fascists in the COS are theones named, pictures shown, news clippings of their glorifying it exposed.

Gilmore continues: They did not. It was then, and is now, up to the administration to determine whether a particular application of the philosophy is built on LaVey's foundation, or whether it has moved on to being something fundamentally different. The hand-picked people who assisted him with this when he was alive are those still making these decisions. Since Ms. Jantsang was never involved in administration or policy-making on any level, this was never part of her responsibilities. That she and other members of her circle decided to continue this harassment of other Church of Satan members is clearly an abuse of their titles/membership.

SR NOTE: the COS bully club continued harassment of the entire Dark Doctrine people. Tani was one of the fiew that flamed them back. That is all that happened and it's all online to be seen.

Justin continues: turns on its own responsible and productive members, and allows its Priesthood to act like a gang of big, bad wolves towards its own members.

Gilmore counters with the "you are mistaken" lie: The above statement demonstrates to us that you have fallen into a view promoted by the propaganda spread by Ms. Jantsang and her followers.

SR NOTE: No, Justin has seen it and experienced it first hand like so many, SO SO MANY OTHERS. Now anyone that KNOWS this went on, is a "victim of propaganda." Give us all a break!

Gilmore continues: We think the facts clearly show a very different picture. Dr. LaVey always suggested that a significant part of one's magical development was the refinement of what he called one's "bullshit detector." For a fellow as young as yourself, who has been a member for so short a time, we can undestand how this would need further development in your case. In time, you may gain experience, and thus learn to see with greater clarity. We never had (nor do we have) any problem with any historical research and essays. In fact, members can still use (or choose to ignore) _anyone's_ writings as each individual sees fit - that is the kind of freedom we promote. It is this second part, each individual's choice to possibly ignore Ms. Jantsang and crew's material, that _they_ would not tolerate.

SR NOTE: correction. They did not ignore it. They trashed it repeatedly with coordinated efforts! And EVERYONE KNOWS THEY DID THIS!

Gilmore continues: Thus, when certain members demand that all other members agree with them on their _personal application of Satanism_, they are thereby trying to thwart the diversity inherent in the Church of Satan.

SR NOTE: We find it very odd that the COS alone is harassing and trying to actively destroy the DIVERSE efforts of the Sataic Council at every turn! Apparently they even tried to get Michael Aquino locked in jail for a crime he didn't commit - and they did this because Michael Aquino printed a book full of Anton Lavey's letters that told a very different story than the one that Barton/Gilmore are trying to tell right now. That seems to be all Michael Aquino did: and he made an organization and went his own way.

Gilmore continues: Then such activities must be called to a halt. That is the essence of what Ms. Jantsangs's clique was attempting to do, to force other Church of Satan members to agree with their interpretation of Satanism.

SR NOTE: anyone that knows "Jantsang and clique" knows that it is HILARIOUS to even try to claim they did anything like this. What they were crusading against were the LIES, the DIRT HIDDEN UNDER THE CARPET, the DECEPTIONS, and the outright, literal RIP OFFS of people. What they went on a crusade against was what EVERYONE who has experienced it knows: the BULLY BOYS, Gilmore's own lackies. The ones he wrote that "storm trooper" email to, telling them who to flame, where to get dirt, and to coordinate their efforts to trash other people. The ONLY reason these other people ever attacked the CoS to begin with was due to Gilmore's storm troopers. Look at them trying to turn that around. It's almost comical.

Gilmore continues: They then tried an "about face" and accused the Church of Satan of "fascism" - a classic case of projection. Subsequently, we have seen some forwarded posts from alt.satanism made by Ms. Jantsang in which she disparages her title (amusing, as in the past she used it more often than anyone who has ever been given one in the organization - and often quite inappropriately), and she has also said negative things about "The Satanic Bible" and other writings by LaVey, all the while seeming to be trying to curry favor with people like Michael Aquino.

SR NOTE: Curry favor with Michael Aquino? By talking about Dark Shadows? Sheesh! Tani is also on friendly terms, and has been all the while, with a few members of the Temple of Set simply because they are Lodge Brothers! She trusts them 100%. Now, this goes outside of tiny Satanic organizations. It was Michael Aquino that, years ago, sent off a copy "for Tani" of Zeena's letter disowning her father. There was never "bad blood" between Tani's NON-COS Satanic people OFFLINE and the ToS until Tani was shown flames where Lilith and Michael Aquino and some other ToS members were flaming her and Phil Marsh all over the internet. Tani was mailed print outs. Who mailed Tani these print outs? Peggy Nadramia did. Tani always disparaged anything that was deserving of disparagement, such as "Might is Right." That analysis of MiR essay was done by Tani and Ole Wolf; not by Vad, and that was PRIOR to the title removal. Tani wrote two essays on the real writers of Might is Right.

The "title" Tani had (some still insist she has it no matter what the post-LaVey COS says) was ONLY used in order to get COS lackies that acted like serfs to TALK and spill the beans. They demanded there be a hierarchy; Tani judged them as garbage and used the title. The "title" was NEVER used on anything published and especially sold - and the COS knows this. They are trying to make more out of the "title" than is really there. There are current members in the COS still, that can attest to that. Tani signs either as "Tani" or as "TJ." When dealing with anyone she ever had respect for, she told them to please NOT call her by that dumb title. There are current COS members that can attest to this.

Gilmore continues: Those actions and words speak for themselves. We think it should be clear to anyone why such an individual is now no longer bearing a title in the Church of Satan.

Justin said: As of this writing, my Church of Satan membership card has gone in the paper shredder, and you may no longer consider me a member of the Church of Satan. As such, I expect you to remove me from all mailing lists and membership rolls that you may have added me to. My membership number was 100261.

Gilmore answers: To resign from our organization, you must send a signed and dated "snail-mail" letter to our San Diego PO Box address, stating your wish to terminate your membership. Once that has been received, your file will be closed and your resignation accepted. We do not accept e-mail resignations.

SR NOTE: since 99% of the people, since 1966, never did this, Barton likes to use them to fabricate false membership numbers. Ask Zeena. She'll tell you.

Justin said: Also, I sent in a link request to be placed on your website (my website being http://www.crosswinds.net/~agmosstic); you may ignore that request.

Gilmore answers: We will drop you from the list of people requesting links.

Justine said: It was fun while it lasted - but I have no faith in the Church of Satan anymore.

Gilmore answers: Satanism isn't about faith. Your reasons for resigning are based on a complete misprision of the facts, but, you are welcome to your subjective interpretation of reality as well as your desire to terminate your affiliation. May you find satisfaction in whatever you pursue. And do send in your snail-mail resignation if you wish to certify what you are requesting in this note.

Hail Satan!
Justin J. Moss I
agmosstic@hotmail.com
Hail Satan!

Administration Church of Satan

Here are other comments:

Oh, Vad did this? Tani did this? The lying son of a bitch. The ONLY people Tani harassed are those who harassed her and they were all NON COS MEMBERS! Jill the Panthers; Red of TASC and Lupo - all NON COS members who harassed HER and anyone who liked the Dark Doctrines FIRST. Reams of flaming posts mocking all the Dark Doctrines exist as written proof of all of this. Tani merely defended herself again Jill for wrongly accusing her of what PETER AND PEGGY DID, even coercing her to spy on Rick Rinker and then denying they ever did that (oh, yes they did by sending a BOO mail about loyalty and committment); Red was actually complained against on behalf of Gerber and the ADL for ATTACKING the ADL and Tani personally. And Lupo for repeated, provable SLANDER.

The shit that got dug up against COS members behaving like everyone knows they behave (the WORLD knows what Schlessinger's gang does) was dug up because PEGGY ASKED TANI TO GET PROOF. Sir Chaos dug up most of it anyway, he logged a lot of it. Who doesn't know they do this? Everyone that hated the "favored satannet gang, the darlings of Peter and Peggy" was in on this getting proof. MANY people knew what was going on even Les Masters knew it and he was in the FCoS at the time.

What HUGE liars - of course they'd lie. But say this against Vad- now what did Vad do? He did NOTHING. He did NOT harass ANYONE, including people who attacked him! In other words, Vad and Ole who were also thrown out didn't even defend themselves against people who were harassing them.

As for the flame wars with the pathetic Gidney's and the Davis woman (husband of the fascist Heiling Xloptuny: they started with Tani, emailing physical threats and dragging the flames online. Tani threatened PEGGY that if she doesn't call off her dogs Tani would give those written threats to the POLICE. That's not harassing them. That's complaining about harassment!

LIARS. These pathetic un-Satanists should be flushed away like so much SHIT that they are.

What Tani also did was supply proof of the "fascist faction" that everyone in the know already knew existed in the COS. Even Lucifer Rising openly mentioned it. When Gilmore "booed" Stewart to "produce proof" Stewart backed down. Tani posted it as a series of articles on a website with COS Mag. Jeff Nagy's picture for all to see from a public newspaper.

This letter was immediately followed by a trolling of Justin's guest book on his website. pathetic.

From: "Justin Moss" <agmosstic@hotmail.com>

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:31:24 -0000

Reply-To: satanicreds@egroups.com

Subject: [satanicreds] A Mysterious Posting

Check it. This showed up in my guestbook earlier today.

Sent: 11:13 AM - 11/21

"Tani, Vad and Ole are losers and so are you. It is about time that all of you are gone and maybe you will take a few more with you. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."

And below, my response to it. Viewable in the guestbook at: http://www.alxbook.com/cgi-bin/guestbook.cgi?gb=X77735

Now, when somebody signs my guestbook and leaves a flame, I expect them to leave their name and email address. If they don't they are a fucking coward who's too afraid to show his face.

So who is this person who's invaded my guestbook? I imagine it's one of the Church of Satan administration. I shall not theorize on who it is, but I have my own personal opinions. So why is it a CoS Admin? Because of who it mentions - Tani, Vad, and Ole Wolf. Recall in my letter to CoS Admin, I mentioned only Tani and Vad - not Ole Wolf. But Ole Wolf is very well known to CoS Admin. So s/he must have assumed I was in with their crowd, since I cited Tani and Vad. This message in my guestbook was also posted in short order after I had recieved an email back from CoS Admin "debunking" my reasons for leaving. And since that letter was unsigned as well.

So what can we assume from this? That CoS Admin are a bunch of cowards who don't bother to sign their name to personal attacks? I think so.

So, CoS Admin (in particular, the one who signed this guestbook), is this all you got? Is this your big, bad "Sooper-Dooper Church of Satan Stormtrooper/Waffen SS coordinated ultra-top secret attack plan (shhhh)"? One little, pathetic, wimpy, measly, and COWARDLY posting in my guestbook? *snort* I thought that the Alien Elite would have had the co-jones (read: balls, guts, moxie, gall, willpower, strength) to sign their name to their own attacks. I guess not.

What a bunch of crap.

Hail Satan!
Justin J. Moss I
agmosstic@hotmail.com
The Rose Garden of Satan
http://www.crosswinds.net/~agmosstic

SR NOTE: all they can do is cry "Tani blah blah" "Vad blah blah." "Ole blh blah blah." They don't get it. Vad? He did nothing. Ole? He told the truth and called Gilmore a liar to his face. The storm troopers don't get it: TOO MANY knew about everything that transpired as it was transpiring. Perhaps well over 200 people at least, even independents.