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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Demons, Kali, Japanese Demons, Cosmology (was Nature of Demons ....)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:20:39 GMT

50010626 VI! om Hail Satan!

Rick :
>>>> ... From my own experience, it's a mistake to
>>>> consider demons as generally helpful creatures. By nature, they 
>>>> are deceitful when they can get away with it, and in general, 
>>>> are not happy to be called up by humans.

sri catyananda :
> Is this because they don't like humans per se or because they don't
> like the coercive magic generally used to call them up? What if one
> sent them metaphorical invitations instead of metaphorical summonses?

coercive magic is only sometimes the catalyst for their appearance.
invitation of demons may be, where 'demon' applies to known 
troublesome spirits, dangerous to the inviter. this is why there are
instructions for ritual weapons and protective devices, as well as
characteristic descriptions, names, weapons, and weaknesses.

> ...the literature of demons would indicate that there are some 
> that have distinctly human qualities and others that do not. 

indeed, one may see it as a spectrum of spirits, some of whom are 
reputed to behave in predictable ways, some not. some consider
demons worthy of opposition and destruction, others of appeasement.
these types of relationships are also engaged with spirits, gods, 
and entities of other characters as well (opposing some gods as
essentially evil, some spirits as worthy of appeasement, etc.).

[X]:
>>> ...Demons are scholars of the
>>> esoteric, and, as such, have much in common with myself. They are
>>> overjoyed to find a person capable of responding to their learned
>>> instruction.

> Very interetsing. I would agree that "Solomonic" (Semitic) demons fall
> into that description 

some do. some of them are buffoons or torturers.

> -- but do Japanese deomons? 

those I read about in the library seemed more animalistic, getting
someone in trouble or directly assaulting them. some seem to be
expert magicians, but scholarliness doesn't seem commonplace. this
would probably be amongst some Confucian or Taoist Hell-Masters,
however. there is Emma-O, whose Ultimate Judgement seems dependent
upon a great deal of knowledge and (we hope) wisdom, but Emma-O is
most of all a cosmic underworld gate guardian. I think we're talking
more of a Devil or Satan here in Emma-O than a run-of-the-mill demon.

> And ARE there Japanese "demons" -- or are all true demons "Solomonic"
> (Semitic) in style and the others simply enetities who have been
> mis-named? 

you probably see how I would respond here -- there are demons around
the globe. my favourites are related to foxes.

> For instance, i have seen lists of "demons" in which the Indian 
> goddess Kali was named -- but she is most definitely NOT a "demon" 
> in her own culture. Rather, she is a GODDESS, which is a different 
> kettle of fish altogether. 

is it? are you sure?

> (Some neopagans call Kali "the Queen of Demons," conflating her with
> [Semitic] Lilith, and that is certainly their right, but among 
> Hindus, i have never encountered Kali being calleed a deomon per se.) 

I think I've been one of the foremost proponents of that phrase in
adoration of Kali ("Queen of Demons"). I have received condemnations
and corrections, but do not feel that I have mixed her up with any
Lilith (whom I also find attractive). one need only look to the 
demoness Nrrti or the clear associations between Kali and diseases
and storms to get a glimpse of the demonic aspect of this multi-
faceted goddess. I enjoy the dual-natured significance of the term
and feel it is reflected in Her worship through time and space.

amongst Hindus you might get some Kali-is-a-demon (asura?) believers,
but for the Shaktiites with an understanding of the rich goddess cults
Hinduism can include, the notion of a demon may even be foreign or 
contrary to their cosmology (because there is no essential morality to 
the cosmos other than the arbitrary rulings of localized deities and 
perhaps some cosmic scheme of karma, reincarnation and moksha 
(liberation)).

Neopagans typically see Kali as 'Warrior-Mother' and treat Her a bit
more reverentially than Hera and Durga because of her associations
with madness, rage, and blood, (characteristics respected by 
menstruating women and the emotions, sexuality, and physical maladies 
associated with periods) perhaps also due to efforts made to obscure 
the lore and worship of these other goddesses. Kali's tantric 
connections enhance Her reputation and popularity amongst Neopagan
groups with which I have had connection (CA), seeming to take its 
tantra sexually and its goddesses powerfully-independent. there are 
numerous New Age and neo-shamanic Kali devotees perpetuating regular
worship celebrations.

Rick:
>> I do agree that demons are knowledgeable. I will add that they are
>> extremely powerful in their respective domains and that encountering 
>> a demon facilitates change within its domain.

> could you explain what you mean by "in their respective domains"
> and "within its domain"? 

demonological descriptions (cf. Weir, others) have assumed hierarchical 
structure, orders of superiority, martial regimentation, and assigned
areas of specialized knowledge. a directory of demons is not too
different than one for spirits generally, fairies, or even one for
gods.

my first question is:
	what is the cosmology that you see the demon is
	operating within?

then
	what relation does this demon have to that cosmology?

and
	what relation do each of us wish to have with these things,
	and how do we go about achieving this? 

some find contact with demons to be beneficial (for whatever
reason), and some champion them as undeserving of condemnation
(perhaps because compassion and love are always greater goods,
even when directed at misguided or evil beings).

love and the world loves with you,

nagasiva