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To: alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.wicca,alt.traditional.witchcraft,alt.religion.satanism From: "Two Crows"Subject: Religious tolerance and Satan - Who IS the father of all lies? Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:34:41 GMT Disciple of Christ: Ok, you've drawn me out to speak up on the issues that are extant between Christianity and Paganism (where both are umbrella terms for a wide array of faiths/denominations). As you wish, I'll "share my thoughts with the Christians" as you requested and cross-posted in an attempt to bring forth. Since I subscribe to three out of the four NG's you tagged, it won't be too far out of my way to express myself to the fourth, which I have personal experience in as well. I've visited the website you linked and find it an expression of the very issues I intend to address in this long essay. I ask that those reading this peruse the "Jesus is Lord" site http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/, and also the following site for an educational contrast. http://www.religioustolerance.org/welcome.htm#new Almost every Saturday evening for the last 20 years I have spent time with a strange collection of people. We discuss several topics of interest, not least of which is the nature of religion and tolerance, and how it relates to past and current events. The list of attendees includes practicing Baptists, Atheists, Agnostics, and Pagans. The list has changed over the years but has always included Christians, Non-Believers, and most recently practicing Pagans. We have enjoyed the presence of Mennonites, Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, and a wide range in between. While the discussions have certainly been heated at times there has never been any violence or lingering disdain. Most notably the longest standing members of this eclectic group have never given up their convictions, but they have given up the misconceptions that prevented them from being friends who agree to disagree. It should be noted that I am a practicing Pagan who's best friends are a practicing Baptist and a practicing Mennonite. Both of them come from a long history within their chosen faith, most notably the Mennonite who can trace his faith and family to pre-colonial times. Over the years we've helped each other in a variety of ways, not least of which are mentioned in the Bible as the measure of sincere charity. We quite simply love each other in a truly brotherly fashion without giving up our convictions or altering our faith one wit. That some would consider these Christian gentlemen as being unequally yoked with darkness for sharing their friendship with me I have an essay below that demonstrates the issues surrounding Paganism and Christianity. Not everyone knows the academic history surrounding their chosen faith, the practices it has held over the centuries, or even the myths that infuse all religions. These myths are of two major varieties - the mythology of religious figures and happenings, and the mythology of history. The first type is inspiring and intended to impart wisdom on a wide range of topics. The second concerns the misconceptions most religions have about themselves, and in some cases constitute willful fraudulence in an attempt to validate their particular faith by the hoary cloak of antiquity. In the most innocent of mythology pertaining to a given faith historical amnesia is prevalent. Neither Christianity nor Neo-Paganism are free from this later type of mythology. In that light I contend that rare few modern Pagan faiths existed much further into antiquity than the later part of the 18th century, and that the Christian faith known as Baptist cannot trace its lineage much further than the mid 17th century in Britain, much less to the figure of John the Baptist as they so often claim. That the Baptist faith is considered a Protestant denomination by academia links it almost inseparably to the history of the Catholic faith that it most plainly disdains to this day. With this in mind let us proceed to the heart of my essay, that being the person of Satan, and his relationship with Christianity, Paganism, and peace on earth. Many in the Fundamentalist/Literalist Christian Movement contend that any practice outside of that proscribed by the Bible, and most often the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (circa 1611 CE) are tacitly or actively accepting servitude to the "god of this world" who is the person of Satan. While the core doctrine of almost all Christian denominations revolves around the Fall/Redemption process, the fundamentalist doctrines rely more heavily on the Principalities of Satan as the lever to right action, and the eventuality of the White Throne Judgment and Lake of Fire condemnation of the majority of mankind as the pressure to lever salvation itself (the doctrine of Predestination aside). I will not at this point attempt to dislodge anyone from their belief in Satan, Hell, or damnation, because for those who base their cosmology in such myths they are most certainly a part of their contingent reality. What I will attempt is to put the process of demonization into perspective, and illustrate that the quest to conquer evil is sometimes the very root of evil itself. I will not need to revisit the Spanish Inquisition, European Witch Craze, or the unfortunate happenings of Salem to illustrate my point. Let us instead visit the history of the figure of Satan and compare it to events both historic and modern. Prior to about 600 BCE the attribution of both good and evil was ascribed to the deitic personages of various religions equally, and that included Judaism. With the cosmic strife between good and evil set forth by Zoroaster in the Zend Avesta we see the attribution of evil to a single god set in opposition to the creator god, in this case Ahura Mazda and Ahriman respectively. It should be understood that Zoroastrianism was the first world religion, and most certainly was extant over a wide area in the times we are examining. Prior to this time the Jews ascribed both positive and negative happenings to JHV, and didn't separate evil into the personage of STN, who at that time was merely a tempting spirit sent by JHV himself to try the faithful. Even the Hebrew word STN was a term for an "adversary" and not an individual spirit entity, and most certainly not a proper name of a given spirit. For the ancient Jew worldly evil was a passing instance that didn't carry any lingering power, or focused intelligence, short of the negative repercussions that it brought on in necessary reality. While a murder was unfortunate, and not considered good by any stretch of the imagination, it was wholly attributed to the choice of a mortal man, and not the urgings of an evil deity bent on destruction of the human race. Even the "Klippotic" elements of the Jewish Kabbalah, which most certainly existed in some form at that time, were not seen as personages, merely the purchase by which creation took form through the Holy Name of G*D. In the times just preceding the birth of Christ we see a very different system for the attribution of evil. The Essenes, and other radical Rabbinical traditions are by this time firmly latched onto the concept of the eternal struggle between light and darkness, good and evil. This struggle is of course personified in the "good" Jews who follow a more literal interpretation of the Torah, and the "corrupt" Jews who make alliances with the Pagans of the Roman Empire. It is in this atmosphere that we first see the idea of the traditional Apocalyptic end times battle where the light wins only after a great destruction that rids the world of the children of darkness. That the Essenes managed a self-fulfilling prophesy by their attitudes and suspicious actions is another story in itself. That their brand of light didn't win against the evil Roman Empire and usher in a new age of holiness is a historical fact. Entering into this age of good vs. evil is the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth, the very person of the Christ, and the soon to be Savior of the World. Without much debate on the literal accuracy of the New Testament, the reliability of eyewitness accounts, or the inerrant word of God being preserved these last 2000 years intact, let us agree that the words of Christ do include the person of Satan, the concept of Hell, and the very aspects of damnation for which the present Christian faith holds as truth. That these concepts are most prevalently presented in the Gospel of John is no small point of interest, and that they are minimal in comparison to His other teachings should be a clue as to the point of His overall message. That Jesus preached radical egalitarianism and that the Kingdom of God is near at hand, and not someplace in the distant heavens should be noted. The most astonishing aspects of His message is that He didn't stone whores in the streets, He spent time with the socioreligious untouchables of His day, and didn't exactly follow Jewish law. His answer to why He didn't wash His hands before dinner are most important to the fact that He was a radical in the Radical Rabbinical tradition Himself. That He dispensed with the Ten Commandments in lieu of Two Commandments is also of importance to this fact. This wasn't a shorthand way of remembering the spirit of the Law of Moses, it was a complete refusal to accept anything but love as the law. How this relates to the person of Satan is simple. Very evidently we can see that the person of Satan has undergone some changes throughout history. That he wasn't always the "god of this world," "the prince of the power of the air," "the adversary that rages like a roaring lion," or "the angel of light" should be visible in the documents and archeology discovered over time. That many chose to see him as the prevalent source of all evil or the deceiver bent on taking the souls of mankind to a hell that was made only for him, is a choice based in the information available to a person at a given time in history. Accepting any of the tenets of Christianity is also a choice based in the information available at a give time, and the personal beliefs of any individual lucky enough to hear the Gospel first hand themselves. (That there is no clear route of salvation for those who didn't hear, which is answered most often by the fact that their ancestors knew before they left the garden and therefore they are accountable to something they never heard is another debate.) That some will not chose the Gospel as their truth is even explained in the New Testament itself, although I disagree with John's reasons why (more likely Mary's words, but that's also another debate.) How this relates to religious tolerance is also simple. We all know that people see things differently, particularly where religion is concerned. That it is very possible that Christianity is the only real truth must be considered by anyone who hears the Gospel. That many chose to stay with the religion of their fathers is a reality that none can deny, and that damnation is a very real possibility is something they must also consider. In the case of Pagans, Wiccans, and Satanists this consideration is given a much deeper amount of thought than most would believe. I can't speak for Satanists, but I do know that many Pagans, Wiccans, and Witches study the Bible quite extensively and most are fully aware of the possible consequences if they are wrong about their choice in faith. It should be understood that many Pagans, Wiccans, and Witches were either once Christians themselves, or come from a Christian background. That they chose their religion most consciously is something that all evangelicals should be firmly aware of. That most of them wish no harm to the individual Christian, or the religion of Christianity, is also something that must be stated. They simply want to be left alone to their own devices, and the same chance to see if their choices were right in the afterlife as you. That your own Holy Word has something to say about such people cannot be avoided. I'll leave the chapter and verse to those of you who want to study it out. When Jesus spoke of the Samaritan being the neighbor that should be loved He was talking about the most vile of religious untouchables in His day. He was talking about the people the Jewish Orthodoxy, and most of society, were used to looking down their noses at. They were quite simply everything that His society hated and looked down on. That the word Samaritan is interchangeable with the following words is something that you might all want to consider: Papist; Nigger; Jew; Wiccan; Lesbian; Faggot; Witch; Pagan; Homo; Queer; Spick; Chink; Secular; Non-Believer; Infidel; Once Born; Loser; Idiot; Whore; Prostitute; Fornicator; Pervert; Reprobate; Apostate; Unregenerate; Hell-Bound; Sinner; Enemy of God; Abomination; Satanic; Demon possessed; Worldly: ect.. When in the course of your evangelizing you encounter a person who won't show you hospitality you should dust your feet off and move on to the next community. The Pagan community has been hospitable to your right to preach the Gospel, but they are unwilling to accept it as the only truth. Most see it as a way to the Creator, but not the only way. Perhaps you should consider dusting off your feet to them, and move on. Jesus had some comments about a particular Pagan man who was a Roman Centurion in need of help for his daughter. Roman Centurions in Christ's day were most certainly Pagan, and many were of the Cult of Mithras (which has some things to say about the concept of resurrection I might add.) When he came to Jesus for help Christ said of him, "I have seen no greater faith in all of Israel." The scriptures do not say anything about this man's conversion, or about Christ offering him the Gospel of conversion, only that he had a great deal of faith. Paul had some things to say about the religiousness of the people of Athens, and proclaimed that the unknown god was in fact Jesus. While I must admit that Paul was a wise man he was basically offering them a way to see his point of view as applicable to them. The missionaries of Northern Europe in the distant past did the very same thing by allowing the Pagans to take their deities into the church with them as saints. That evil exists is not often in dispute, but the source and nature of evil is. We Pagans, Wiccans, and Witches don't believe it comes from a personification of evil, only from an imbalance in nature and that includes the nature of man. We don't believe in the fall of man or in the need of redemption in the same way Christians do. We believe the divine spirit is within us all from the time of birth until the time we return to spirit. We do believe in responsible action, responsibility to one's choices, and that what harm we bring to others comes back to us eventually. We do not believe in the person of Satan as a real being who is deceiving us, and we do not believe that the generative power of the universe has made something that is flawed or to be turned over to darkness. We hold very highly the concept of brotherly love, the right of all people to be who they are, and that everyone should be responsible for their actions and choices. We do not sacrifice blood, children, or engage in any conspiracy to further the kingdom of Satan. We quite simply don't believe in Satan as anything other than a godform, but we do believe in the sacredness of the person of Jesus Christ. Many of our respected elders, and teachers from the past, exhort us not to blaspheme the name of your God, not because we see Him as the only one, but because we are assured that your investment of faith in Him is a sacred thing not to be taken lightly. We ask that those of you who chose to see us as hell-bound and evil do not blaspheme our right to invest our faith in our gods, even if you see such faith as futile. This world is full of individuals who see things differently, have different ethnic and religious backgrounds, and have different ambitions. In any event we have to share this planet with people who don't believe as we do. In many cases these differences exist within the family itself, and that includes the family of God, no matter what god that is. I contend that within the confines of the walls of any single church everyone therein has various beliefs, and differing relationships with their god. That each individual is a precious life is not openly disputed, but we all know that the tenets of religion have historically enticed the faithful to see the non-believer as worthless, or worthy of death. Without in-depth descriptions of all the most horrendous act committed in the name of many different gods I know it is likely that everyone agrees that religion can be the stimulus to a great many atrocities. That these atrocities all started with acts similar to Phelps' "God Hates Fags" campaign should be evident to even the least skillful scholar. We need to agree to disagree on matters of faith, and come together on issues that we should all agree on, and that being the fact that we don't need to kill each other over race, religion, or creed...or even sexual preferences for that matter. In closing I have this to say and interpret... Repent (change your mind about things) for the Kingdom of God (peace on earth and goodwill towards men) is near at hand (so close you can reach out and touch it)... Live and Let Live and above all Know Thyself... Two Crows wrote in message news:8oos20$5al$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Each one may have a different label, but YOU ALL WORSHIP THE SAME > MASTER-SATAN!!!! > Christians view this page for the truth!!! > http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/#newage > Repent NOW!!! > http://www2.go-concepts.com/~gordon/ > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.
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