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To: alt.lucky.w,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,talk.euthanasia,alt.fan.satan,alt.satannet,alt.magick,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.politics.satanism From: boboroshi@satanservice.org (SOD of CoE) Subject: Pact W/ The Devil, Crossroads Rite, Etc. (was making a pact) Date: 7 Oct 1999 21:54:42 -0700 49991007 IVom Hail Satan! SATAN LOVES YOU AND YOUR LITTLE DOG TOO! here I respond to the rest of the thread on Pacts With the Devil. Halskovresponds to SabatoA@webtv.net's inquiries about "a pact with the devil": #># What would the point of making a pact with the "devil" be? #># It is my experience that there is no supreme evil other than #># that which resides within yourself. To make a pact with #># this evil would be to embrace this side of yourself, which #># in the end would only lead to sadness and delusions. 'the devil' per se, or Der Teuffel, the Wild Man, the Black Man at the Crossroads, and Krampus the St. Nicolaus alter-ego, is well-documented by magical and religious traditions in American and European cultures. you can see a picture of Krampus with your browser on the top level page of the TOKUS Satanism Archive at: http://www.satanservice.org/archive/ pacts with this being have been made for centuries, and the nature of carrying them out seems to vary depending on how the pact-maker sees the being in question. due to the Christianization of Europe and the Americas there is some intersection of identity of the "Satan" of Christian lore and legends with it, especially as portrayed in the highly propagandistic legends of "Faust" by Marlowe and Goethe. motivation for making such a pact are usually for the benefit of the mage or mystic in question. the bargain varies considerably depending on the notions the mage has of the being with whom she is making the agreement. Christians have for years presumed that the arrangement was doctrinally-determined and that this need include a trade of one's "soul" (spiritual identity or substance by the essentialist and dualistic cosmological schema) for some temporary material, social, magical or intellectual gain such as wealth, fame, occult power, wisdom, sex, particular information, revenge, etc. and yet by those of less 'erudite' Christian or entirely different religious or atheistic peoples the pact, deal or bargain one may make with the Devil can be temporary, can include service in exchange for instruction (the Devil is reputed to be the master of many human arts and sciences), and SHe can even be tricked into providing treasures or benefits without having to actually pay for them. see stories like that about Daniel Webster, songs like 'The Devil Went Down to Georgia', and accounts by individuals (e.g. 'when the time comes to pay, give him the SOLE OF YOUR SHOE') like those interviewed by Harry M. Hyatt (see the beautiful page on the man and his work by sri catyananda at: http://www.luckymojo.com/hyatt.html ) in which a certain spell is effected and they sell themselves to the Devil in exchange for power, musical or magical acumen, or so as to secure him as an ally. Entari/Kendar Deltos : #> I must say you are wrong about the "only" part. I have #> embraced my evil, and now it is one among many tools for #> my everyday life. Thinking about it, I would say you #> are wrong about making a pact with evil is embracing it. dualistic religious tend to blame all the things that they don't like on some grand cosmic antagonist. the dualists amongst Christians have chosen the bogey they call 'Satan' and loaded the responsibility for all the world's "evils" (from real travesties like torture and violence to fallacious 'evils' like breaking religious laws and fucking with the wrong people, even consensually, or ingesting the wrong foods or psychoactives). I find that forming an alliance with what is inside myself that is difficult and even apparently dangerous to me is to my overall benefit. eshewing the natural which is at odds with me as something which I'd like to see destroyed (rather than opposed and resolved with compassion) just feeds the fires of the Big Bad Meanie the fundies detest. far better to befriend the Beast and see what progress may be made toward mutually-desired objectives. the first step to resolving internal dissonance is the willingness to compromise toward shared goals. this is the method of Gandhi and of many nonviolent activists, and I feel that it ought to be the method of anarchists and all who seek to avoid harm in their interactions. #> A pact is an agreement (I scratch your back kind of deal) #> between you and another for a service to be performed. #> And it is a bad idea to make deals with evil (especially #> your own.) To embrace something is to accept it for what #> it is, and in some cases take control. I don't know why making a pact is so treacherous. treaties between hostile nations can become the groundwork upon which is eventually constructed a lasting peace. if one sees this as all some sort of Jungian Shadow-play, then making a pact would be a valuable act in that it begins a negotiation with the suppressed and alien parts of oneself. working to resolve this Shadow is an important element in self-individuation, personal maturity, and the healthy growth of one's personality. I'll leave the idea of 'making a pact with evil' to the dualists who believe in this kind of cosmological paradigm. I think it is a personal and social fracture from which dualists will long be attempting to recover and am content to oppose that which I detest (like torturing innocents) rather than ascribe some sort of divinely moral character to it. ------------------------------------------------------------- FDelvalle@webtv.net (Francisco Del valle): #> [If] you want to make a pack with the devil then why don't #> you ask him . He's on earth right now. He's waiting on the #> sidelines at the moment waiting for when his time is ready #> to take control of the world.... this Revelations-based character is not the same as the Devil of the Crossroads, though there may be some common qualities (such as their affinity with beasts, the wild, intersections between worlds, the arts, etc.). # ...satan has no need to make a personal pact with anyone # because he will have a pact with the whole world. according to a variety of sources the Devil does indeed have an interest in pacts, and the nature of these pacts seems to vary considerably: from sacrifices of animals to being present at the Crossroads at the proper times and with the right gear (for more specific accounts of Crossroads rites, see the web page at Lucky Mojo: http://www.luckymojo.com/crossroads.html which was also written and filled with Hyatt interviews by sri catyananda). the Devil seems to get something real and desired out of the deal, and some Satanists believe that this being is promethean in character -- wanting the best for human beings and providing technologies (e.g. fire, magic) to enhance hir development and station, at times in exchange for service or collaboration. "Lord Dread_not" : # ...Satan can't take your soul by force, he will indeed # make a pact with you as you are offering it willingly. not only this, but for many the notion of a "soul", as well as "God" is considered ridiculous, and so the pact- maker may refer to the bargain as having 'sold THEMSELVES to the Devil' (as into slavery). sri catyananda has wisely suggested that this may be the attitude of those whose ancestors have already known such servitude (e.g. those of African heritage brought to the Americas). having sold oneself, this is of course subject to all the limitations and potential fractures that any agreement of this kind may yield: one may buy back one's freedom, the terms of agreement may terminate the contract after a period of time such as 7 or 9 years, and even Christians tend to agree that one can appeal to more powerful sources for assistance in getting out of the arrangement if it becomes problematic (what this more powerful authority might be varies of course depending on one's perspective, though often it is a magician or priest with a reputation). ------------------------------------------------------------- "Lord Dread_not" : # The entire faith of satan worship is based on sophism and # half truths. [They] take the text from the bible, # rephrasing what they like and commence to worship a being # who (according to the bible) is doomed to be trashed in the # end.... Christian Satanists like these are few and far between from what I can tell. usually the cosmology is changed so as to suit the worshipper. # ...History dictates that the devil takes more than he gives # and the price of power, which seems cheap when you first # contemplate it, will blow your mind in the end. this is the story which fundamentalists of many stripes would like us to believe. it is the typical Faustian bad-deal story which has us running to avoid the bogey at any cost. let me correct you in stating that your 'history' is faulty if it be drawn on folklore and the testimonies of numerous peoples, since these are rather more on the side of the Devil as a potentially wily but fairly predictable fellow. # I'm not saying that I harbour a belief in satan, only that # there is a force of nature out there that one could # easily mistake for him. here is where I tend to agree strongly. my understanding is that the figure of "Satan", "Shaitan", "Iblis", or even "Ahriman" is personalization of natural forces which we may fear and loathe due to being ignorant animals bent on preserving our genetic strain and organismic lives. if we can come to see the bigger picture we'll realize how perfect are all portions of the cosmos even while we may fight to our last breath against a predator who has come to kill and eat us. it is MY intent to change the consciousness of the human species toward a wider perspective, and it is the goal of my church, the Church of Euthanasia, to reframe the notion of death and our place as a single species within what we may call the biosphere in which we live so that we might come to live PEACEABLY with other species rather than continuing to RAPE, PILLAGE and PLUNDER, exploiting whatever we may lay our hands upon in the pursuit of our selfish and ultimately puny goals. for more about the Church of Euthanasia, see the web page: http://www.satanservice.org/coe/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Trancser : #># I think there is a such thing, as screwing up on a pact. now here is one thing which is seldom discussed by those who write of pact-making with the Devil (or whatever they choose to call the being): if no consequences of defaulting on the pact are made, then what will this Devil do? I do not take too seriously those who describe a coerced or unwilling compact or one in which one is TRICKED or EXTORTED into making it. if there is nothing which the Devil in question is going to gain, then why would SHe make the deal in the first place? no, instead I think that SHe must either have some power to enforce the terms of the agreement (through haranguing or harassing the person trying to weasel out of the deal or exacting some type of revenge -- influencing their fortune, for example), or there will be some detriment to having made the agreement without repayment (the gold for which they bargained turns back to straw and the law is immediately upon the heels of the pact-breakers, for example; stories like this abound). from all accounts I've read the Devil is rather patient with stupidity, ill-conceived quick-rich schemes, and explanations as to why one could not come through on their part of the bargain. see such lovely compendia of folk tales as Rudwin's "The Devil in Legend and Literature", Grimm's fairy tale compilation(s), or "Devils", edited by Isaac Asimov as I remember. huichai@my-deja.com: #> like not living up to your end of the deal. #> Just ask any businessman. the Devil is reputed to be an excellent businessman. sometimes a lawyer. the Book of Job (a Jewish Satan) portrays the Devil as a wandering (malak) Sheriff and District Attorney for Jehovah, for example. #># ...does anyone ... here ...truely believe, that a being #># known ... [as] DEVIL/SATAN ...actually exits? I'm pretty sure of it. I signed a pact in blood with Hir and think that SHe is living up to Hir end of the bargain in spectacular fashion. details about this pact can be found at the following web page: http://www.satanservice.org/archive/practice/tokuspact.txt #> I think that the whole business of selling souls is a christian #> invention and has nothing to do with reality. it smacks very strongly of the Simon Magus of biblical historical fiction: someone who offered to purchase the secret of the holy transubstantiation from Peter and was soundly rebuked for being such an enterprising competitor (er blasphemer). #># ...if someone wants proof that whatever might be in doubt, #># exists, they are presented physical, emperical evidence, right? #> #> If the object of the proof is physical. and as long as the object can have some INFLUENCE on the physical world and wishes (if it has desires) to be known. Trancser : # ...physical evidence is proof of physical phenomena, # not in exactly the same words. That non physical existance # can be "proved" with a physical existance, but not # necessarily. The link between the "proof" and the # non-physical existance is out of necessity non-physical. the problem with this type of assertion is that: a) criteria for proof are usually contested between cosmological systems b) no connection between 'physical' and 'non-physical' is in any way rationally explained as a context c) there is no logical necessity that evidence of non-physical existence must be physical unless one proceeds from the paradigm that *all* evidence is necessarily physical of character (the predominate opinion of modern Science). questions of how the non-physical influences the physical immediately comes up, and why some non-physical being could not make itself known to any individual through, say, sound, or thought, or synchronicity, is unexplained (I have met quite a few gods by these methods, for example). #># ...why [would] someone want to meet HIM...? because the Devil is said to possess extraordinary knowledge, a mastery of magic and artistry, and this mastery can be conferred upon those who are willing to deal for it. because it is an ordeal which only the most fearless (or foolish!) of magicians would undertake for the very fact (or lack) of its experience. # ...What made you come to the conclusion, that this being # known as the devil, exists? reading about Hir, contemplating Hir nature, to what people might be referring when they mentioned Hir, and conversations with my goddess. :> # ...notifing authorities [would] be a better solution...[than] # hiring the assistance of some metaphysical being.... unless the being *was* an authority. :> # ...assuming we are referring to THE "devil", the keeper of # hell itself, Ruler of the Underworld (remember the Christians could be wrong about the afterlife *and* the Underworld). cf. the text "Underworld Initiation" by R.J. Stewart for more information on this with respect to the Faerie for one example. some Native Americans have an Underworld also which, if memory serves, does not resemble a Dantean Inferno. # the numero-uno god of darkness/hell/damnation? there's that dualistic 'damnation' thing again. ignoring that (since I don't believe in or support any god or God which might have set something like that up), gods of darkness and the Underworld are sometimes very admirable. #> usually, when people invoke a demon, it is done deliberately, #> and whether or not they believe he actually exists is #> immaterial. by doing certain things certain results will follow. a lovely hypothesis, and one of the reasons that I think that sorcerers are prone to demon-summoning of the same type. #> All I can suggest is reading "Pacts with the Devil" by #> Hyatt & Black. just reading the book won't invoke any devils. I didn't like that book very much. it struck me as very simplistic and limited in scope. what is it about that book, as compared to something like "Goetic Evocation", by Saevdow (which I also didn't agree with but liked more), that you particularly enjoyed and found valuable? # ...illistrate a representation, of what *the devil* looks # like for you, again assuming you have seen him/her/it before? the best representative icons I've yet to find are those which integrate a number of species to one being. the picture of "Aziel, Guardian of the Treasures", which appears on the TOKUS web page near the bottom on the right (in browsers) was scanned from M. Rudwin's "The Devil in Legend and Literature", as I mentioned above, and was published by Open Court in 1973. it has elements which I have identified with the 'King of Demons' for more than two decades, and these may also be found in such pictures as that of "Baphomet" as rendered by Eliphas Levi (which I'll eventually get around to scanning too :> -- but you can find it in many books on occultism such as Levi's "Transcendental Magic", and it is probably contained in your local library's reference section or that numbered near 133; Cavendish's black and white occult encyclopedia probably has a copy of it). the trick is that Satan as I understand Hir can appear in any guise and form that will suit Hir purposes with the individual in question. if SHe wants to be scary, SHe'll look pretty horrific, if SHe wants to be reassuring, SHe'll look lovely and sheltering. as SHe is the WILD ONE, you gotta be kinda careful around Hir, but as with many wild animals, once you gain Hir confidence SHe is reliably considerate. VASECTOMY IS THE CHOICE OF ALL MORAL HUMAN MALES! blessed beast! boboroshi@satanservice.org (SOD of CoE) -- http://www.luckymojo.com/magi/ ; http://www.satanservice.org/ http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired
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