THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
	a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.witchcraft,talk.religion.newage,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.wicca
From: lorax666 
Subject: Wiccan Myth -- Gardner-Variety Fantasies? (What is Wicca?)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:53:05 GMT

50030513 vii --                            fluffy and means business

I smashed all the witch/witcher/witchcraft/pagan/wicca/spells
groups with alt.fan.harry-potter recently. in amongst all the talk
about Draco Malfoy and whether he might actually *like* Hermione,
I found this!

"Julie White":
#> What is Wicca?
#> WICCA (sometimes called Wicce, The Craft, or The Old Religion by its
#> practitioners) is an ancient religion of love for life and nature.

demonstrate some continuity sufficient to identify it as "religion", 
and more particularly "*a* religion (called Wicca)" and you'll be 
warranting some attention. most proclaiming the ancientness of their 
faith have better credentials than Gardner and Murray, sorry. :>

Aunty Kreist:
# ...Wicca is an initiatory, oathbound tradition that was created by
# Gerald Gardner in the 40-50's. There is nothing ancient about it....
# Your grandmother is older than Wicca.

LOL!

# Unless you are an initiated Wiccan, you couldn't possibly know what
# their beliefs are.

Outer Court instruction and well-written books demonstrate otherwise.
those who live and work with witches sometimes glean their beliefs 
without having to swear oaths (because the communion of work and 
daily living is enough to seal the bonds of love and trust). there's
enough dramatics involved with witchery and occultism that hard-core
folx will sometimes embarrassingly broadcast their dogmas.

#> The Church indicted them for black magic and Satan worship,
#> though in fact these were never a part of the Old Religion.
#> ...scholars such as Margaret Murray and Gerald Gardner....

umhmm. good coverage on high points for these two. you're promoting 
what was sometimes called the "mythology of Wicca" here.

# Training is always required for initiation.

that is not my understanding, but it is certainly more common and 
preferred!

# The Church indicted them for black magic and Satan worship, 
# though in fact these were never a part of the Old Religion.

the Old Religion is as fictitious as most religious figures with 
superpowers like Jesus, and Buddha, and Lao Tzu. you might as well 
talk to most rational Wiccans about "the Old Religion" and tell them 
that it was invented by Mickey Mouse or Popeye or Pope Innocent VIII.

Julie White:
# Just because a word for a certain grouping of feelings originated in
# the 1950s

Julie, they're talking about ritual traditions. you're talking about
groups of feelings. your enthusiasm for the Wiccan Myth is very
illustrative of its strength in Neopagan culture and clear evidence
that it yet retains support. it is quite as comparable to the notion
of importance paid to the virginity of a semite called Miryam.

# does not mean that was the first time it was ever felt.

when WAS  the first time someone called their religion
"Wicca", though? the term is used sure, but as far as
I know, the use of it for a religion is not that old.

# Previously for over a year, I had certain beliefs.
# While having these beliefs about nature, spirits,
# the Earth, etc, I was completely unreligious.

beliefs are just beliefs. while they may be enjoyable,
make a good story, hold together because their authors
were decent writers, or had good editors, that doesn't
make them true. some whoppers have fooled the religious
for years, so don't think you're in any bad company.

# I didn't know ANYTHING about paganism,

what convinces you that you know something now?

# and I didn't know anything about Wicca.

what convinces you that you know something now?

# Although I didn't think I was the ONLY person on
# earth who thought what I thought, I certainly
# didn't think there was a term for it.

sharing some thoughts isn't enough to make religion.
some of the greatest religious antagonists believe
very similar things about the universe. sometimes
their shared beliefs are what make them most hotly
adverse to one another.

# The TERM may have originated in the 1950s,

the contention is that the *religion* of Wicca did.
you haven't explained to us why this ain't so, only
*that* it ain't. in order to be convincing, you may
have to get some kind of account of pre-Gardner 
ritual activities directly connected in some way
(e.g. called "Wiccan") that preceded Gardner.

# but the ideas and feelings behind it most
# certainly ARE ancient.

religion is a powerful and old thing, agreed.

# ..."wicca origination" talk.
# Vegetables were around LONG before there was
# actually a name for vegetables. If you think
# that someone like Gardiner [sic] suddenly
# said "I think today I'll create vegetables"
# and then POOF - they appeared - you are in
# the dark about that too.

no, he may have been more of a fruit or nut than
a vegetable, but he whipped up some religion
(initial Books of Shadows being derived in his
reflection on grimoires and occult books popular
during that time period, and he lifted long 
sections of text from authors like Crowley
for his rituals), calling that religion Wicca. 

he also appears to have been dyslexic. some might 
proclaim him a charlatan, and perhaps with good 
reason. in the long run converts will swear on
their graves on matters of faith and most 
Wiccans probably won't care one way or the other
(because we've already been disillusioned).

the Key

eventually what's more important than whether the
Craft is old, or whether Wicca is the Old Religion,
is whether what you're talking about is

		a) religion at all, involving all the
		   details and sociocultural complexity;

since a good deal of what is mentioned in usenet that
pretends to be Wicca is individual spirituality. 
having absolutely no objections to it, I'm not 
sure it qualifies as religion until you've got bunches.

		b) enjoyable and fulfilling to you and
		   to the people with whom you practice;
		   
no matter whether we're repeating karmic lessons through
reincarnations, headed for some kind of Summerland, or
temporarily enjoying the benefits of human animal life
until we're dead and gone, the Rede is simply a good guide.

		c) truly serving the divine.

this last is perhaps the most crucial, and it becomes 
tricky when speaking of "Nature Worship" because humans 
aren't really separate from Nature and we are inclined 
to fall into self-absorption and narcissism. big blow-up
dolls of ourselves may be the kind of 'Nature' Wiccans 
would like to worship, and in association with what are 
*rightly*-regarded as sacred mysteries, they have their
place during every age.

we may benefit from asking whether 'Nature' is harmed by 
our continued 'success' as a species, and whether certain 
mysteries and formulae (e.g. sexual) ought be reserved 
for special occasions or conducted in responsible ways
(preventing unintentional results) rather than promulgated 
as rich success (possibly rising toward carrying capacity!).

blessed be!

lorax666
 nagasiva@luckymojo.com