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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.ethics,alt.pagan.magick,alt.pagan,alt.religion.wicca
From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (lorax666)
Subject: Wiccan Ethics, Black Magic and Coercion
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:31:32 GMT

50000511 IVom

sri catyananda :
>>>are many among us who do not make a firm and fast disctinction between
>>>an act of will performed in the "meat" world and one performed in the
>>>"mental" world. That is, for a woman in certain cultures, wearing a
>>>simple flower in her hair to attract a mate may be considered as much of
>>>an alterant of the "thoughtpatterns, emotional state, aetheric energy
>>>patterns, choice of will, [and] freedom" of the man she is dating

lorax666:
>>no, this is an alteration of one's own appearance so as to impact
>>the consciousness of another. they may ignore her or avoid her.

"Nova Solo" :
>...Applying lipstick to the lips emphasizes their shape, plumpness, 
>color, moistness, and in general everything that makes them similar 
>to labia.  It is an attempt, by association, to engage the sex 
>drive and often of someone else.  

that is correct. the act directly affects one's own body.

>People are free to ignore the signal, the associative nature of 
>fat, red, wet lips in that they are free not to act on it.  But 
>men will find a woman wearing lipstick more attractive than the 
>same woman without lipstick (I believe that was in Desmond 
>Morris' "The Human Sexes").  

depends on the culture and time period. however, finding someone
attractive is not the same as NOT finding them attractive and
being magically COERCED into feeling this way.

>That "I find you attractive" impulse is not something that can 
>be squelched; what the individual does about that feeling is 
>up to them.

consider someone who wishes to be faithful to their current mate
or partner. magically ensorcelling them removes their will from
the matter, gives them an excuse to become unfaithful. this is
different than saying "she put on make-up and I couldn't help
myself".

>I must say I believe attraction-enhancement spells work the 
>same way (love spells, lust spells, etc.)  They can prompt the 
>interest, but cannot determine what the "victim" of the spell 
>does about it.  

as I understand it then you're not talking about magic at all.
you're talking about materialistic influence. magic requires
some kind of symbolic linkage and a nonphysical influence that
goes beyond strictly mechanical, biological or psychological
effects.

>It might be that the victim is mentally unbalanced anyway, 
>and chooses to go entirely psycho on the spell caster.  Is 
>this any different than the woman who is stalked and raped 
>because her stalker couldn't stop staring at her legs and tits 
>and fat red lips?  

yes it is different. a spell cast upon the individual directly
affects them. it affects their will in a way that they did not
ask for. their attention is not involved. the woman's legs, tits
and lips may be skillfully avoided by the individual (either
through residence in a neighborhood where such customs are
eschewed or through buffering one's life so that one does not
come into contact with this kind of woman), whereas the spell
can NOT be avoided and must be either resisted or obeyed.

>I am not Not NOT saying "she deserved it" mind you.  I'm just
>saying anything can set a psycho off, be it a lust spell or a 
>miniskirt and high heels.

I think that your speculation may be related to or may even
lead to the type of attitude where the response is 'she was
asking for it', but this seems a tangental issue.

>>>I understand that -- for you -- the prospect of influencing IN ANY WAY
>>>another being's free will is "evil,"
>>
>>I think the issue is "imposition", which, to some, is part of what
>>"evil" includes. coercion of any sort is considered evil to many
>>Wiccans, for example.

>And I say most Wiccans are trying to classify their magick without letting
>those classifications extend into other areas of their lives.  This is one
>problem I see rampant among many people who mix religion and magick that I
>do NOT see present in people who practice "straight" magick.  Religious
>magicians tend to compartmentalize magick and it never becomes part of who
>they are or how they view the everyday world.  They seem unable (unwilling?)
>to blend "life" with "religious life" to the detriment of each, I have to
>think.

I don't see how this is a meaningful response to the explanation which
I was offering regarding imposition. coercion is evil, by these standards.
what does this have to do with a mix of life and classifications of
magic? I don't see your point.

>>>but for most of the rest of us, the
>>>issues are fuzzier and less strictly defined. Especially among
>>>magicians, for whom there is often a REAL non-physical dimension of
>>>operation, the distinction between what is done "in the flesh" and what
>>>is done "symbolically" is not always easy to make.
>>
>>the intent is what seems to matter for most who are morally opposed
>>to the type of spell about which Angela is objecting -- that [and] its
>>likelihood of success.
>
>Why only the intent of spells?  Why not the intent of haircolor, 
>lipstick, perfume, tight jeans, high heels, tank tops worn braless, 
>bikinis?  

as I have said all along, there may well BE objections to the
intent of direct (as compared to symbolic) action, and this
may delve (though doesn't usually) into questions of influence
through allure. however, what we were talking about was not
spells to enhance your own attractiveness or allure, but to
make someone else love you. the difference is quite clear.
while the eventual RESULT might be viewed as the same, the
intent with regard to coercion is very different.

>I'm sure there are other examples, but the 
>attractiveness/attraction one is the clearest; besides, 
>it's the one in play.

if you have other examples, bring them out. I'll be happy
to address them as I understand them. Wiccan ethics is not
a subject which is too difficult to parse, even though some
areas are contested even within the Wiccan community.

blessed beast!
lorax666
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