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To: alt.magick.tyagi
From: tyagI@houseofkaos.Abyss.coM (Lorax)
Subject: Wicca for Christians (LONG Rvw) (Was Re: Wicca FAQ)
Date: Kali Yuga 49941207

Blessed be.  This is a review of William Taylor's 'WICCA FAQ' (for Christians).
I hope to represent a more conservative and intellectually responsible view
of the Wiccan traditions to the greater Christian public and reviewing such
publications is part of my work in this regard.  Enjoy. :>

Lorax
-----

|From: whtaylor@netcom.com (William H. Taylor)
|Subject: WICCA FAQ
|Summary: WICCA FAQ for Christians

|Somebody here asked for something to send Christians when they send their
|"be damned" stuff here.  I think sending them an FAQ is a good response.

So do I, though I'd temper it so as to represent a greater range of Wiccan.
Below I give my critical reactions to what I'd call a very wonderful first 
attempt to bridge the gap.  I'd like to encourage more efforts of this type, 
and my sometimes fervent disagreement below should only be taken as a 
support for communication in particular ways, not a criticism of the effort 
involved.

The relationship between Neopagans and Christians is one near and dear to
my heart, and I'd rather that it got off on a very firm and honest footing.
The problem is that most people don't really understand their *own* religion
well enough to speak about it in the round, let alone attempt to represent
*two* of them and try to bridge the gap.  I don't claim to be a scholar in
these matters, yet many of the statements below seemed quite extreme to my
sensibilities.


| What is Wicca?
|    Wicca is a pagan religion that predates judaism by centuries.

This is blatantly false and should not be presented to the Christian in
quite this manner.  Wicca is derived from largely Christian, masonic and
pseudo-masonic structures, infusing an alternative mythos which was taken
from revolutionary and anthropological sources.  To attempt to ply upon
the weak link to some historical basis will only undermine the connection
with intelligent Christians when they find out falsity of the claim.


|It primarily focuses on nature and the forces that run nature.  There
|is a primary belief that Magick is just the force which makes everything
|hang where its supposed to and that manipulating it is natural (indeed they
|believe that to not manipulate it is unnatural).  

This is simplistic in that Wicca (and esp. general Neopaganism) is not at
all based upon primary beliefs.  In fact, common thoughts and beliefs about 
the world (doctrines) are contrary to many Wiccans' experience, being an
issue of relative preference rather than an 'article of faith'.  It is true
that *some* Wiccans have accepted doctrinarian standards, but on the whole
it cannot be said of Wiccans as a group, just as it cannot be said that
Christians as a group think the same way about Jesus of Nazareth.


|The belief in these Gods in more just symbolic than actually believing that
|they exist as real persons. Imagery is usually everything in this religion
|and so most rituals in this religion are made bizarre by the exxageration
|of imagery.

I think that this is a disservice to pantheists, who often in fact believe in
the literal and energetic existence of the gods, perhaps somewhat like the
orishas of African tradition and/or perhaps as psychic or elemental energies
which have personification and history.


| What is its view of christianity?
|    Wiccan people are as much into 'their' history as we are to ours.

Too much so.  Too often the Wiccan wants to accept a mythological 
origination as historical and the known history as lies.  Such a conflation
occurs in most religious movements and is in part a reaction to the over-
emphasis placed upon historicity within a materialist paradigm.  This can
be seen in various FAQs throughout the Internet (e.g. GoldenDawnFAQ wherein
the material and historical basis of the social and esoteric elements of
the tradition are given emphasis while the mythological are downplayed)
and in the very humorous and important alternative religions such as that
of the Subgenius and of Discordia.

This type of objectivism does not stop at the examination of so-called
'histories'.  It extends to the matter of scripture, in which the various
popular tomes (by Starhawk or Adler or Valiente) are given greater emphasis
or public acclaim than the reflection upon one's own Book of Shadows or on
a more nonsectarian approach incorporating scripture the world over.

It also extends into the social nightmare known as the 'degree system',
which does not appear to be mentioned within this FAQ, likely because its
obvious association with masonry (and thus with heresy) might prove overly
distracting from the main subject.  Those who have received formal recog-
nition within these degree systems are given overmuch attention as regards
their authority.  

While these social labels will indeed identify a reservior of important 
experience from which to draw, if the degree system is functioning properly, 
too often the locus of truth is taken away from the novice and applied to 
the popular figure, whereas the best and most responsible initiates will 
always return this authority to the individual.


|They are not quick to forget the slaughter of hundreds even thousands of
|pagans and suspected pagans by supposed christians.  

It is worse than this by far.  Many Wiccans appear to accept a mythos in
which the Evil Church slaughtered "millions" of Pagans or Wiccans during
the Inquisition and beyond.  A blurry and malevolent force called 
'Christianity' is responsible for these deaths quite aside from any type
of sociopolitical or psychological processes in force at the time.  These
are the thoughts of the uneducated Wiccan, and they are quite comparable
to the extreme and historically-unfounded ideas accepted by a great number
of Christians regarding their own history.


|Although most respect
|Christ as a man of great teachings (but just a man) few really respect the
|church of Christ .  They see all to clearly the bickering and backstabbing
|that goes on in supposedly christian sects and to put it mildly think we
|are idiots at times.

Again I think this is an understatement.  Most Neopagans of which I am aware 
have serious differences with not only the theology but the very existence 
of Christian religious traditions.  Since it arises in some measure as a 
*response* to Christianity, as an agrarian and Northern European alternative 
to a Semitic mystery tradition gone wild, Wicca is a composite of very 
diverse individuals who at times know absolutely nothing about either where 
they are coming from (usually oppressive and nominally Christian homes) or 
where they have landed (within a resurgent tradition founded upon mythical 
history which has roots in Western Hermetica and dreams of connection with 
pre-Christian nature-worship).

Not only is there a fierce and disdaining attitude toward Christianity
within the Neopagan community (largely wrought through ignorance of all
but their own traumatic Christian upbringing), but this is accompanied
with a denial of the Christian god and faith in its most extreme elements.
One has to look no farther than the Church of All Worlds (so-called) to
see that at least its outspoken leaders (esp. Otter G'Zell and Isaac
Bonnewits) are quite blatantly anti-monotheistic in their rhetoric and
aChristian in their thealogy.

That is, while Neopagans in general and Wiccans in particular do not
attempt to define themselves with *respect* to Christians (they sometimes
have no choice in their surrounding culture, however, and resort to it
anyway), they do tend to *reject the truth* of Christianity for any but
the individual Christian, reserving the blatant identifier of 'anti-
Christian' for the 'Satanist', whom they view in much the same way as
does the nominal Christian -- the evil-doer and sociopath.


|    It is important to note that it is from such things as sexual assaults
|by church members, extreme and harsh judgement by christian radicals, and
|a general misunderstanding of Christ's character arises Wiccans even
|Satanists (although I strongly hesitate to compare the two).

This may be a slight to the quality of evaluation which many Wiccans bring
to bear on Jesus Christ, though from a believing Christian perspective it
is likely appropriate.  Even so, not all Christians feel the same way about
Jesus, some also thinking him to be 'a very wise human' or perhaps extending
the 'Child of the divine' status to all people with conscience.


| How organized is it?
|      Wicca has always been a 'make it up as you go' religion. 

Another overstatement.  Gardnerian tradition, which is arguably the central
trunk of Wiccan tradition in its most conservative form, has quite standard
and important ritual-forms, and very many of the lines of authority within
it place great emphasis on the structure and means of initiation and
religious practice, though the latter is sometimes considered to be a more
private matter between oneself and the divine.


|Although some
|covens do actually have time honored values and rituals, Wicca has never been
|a completely organized religion with a central belief like a bible etc.

Here is a balanced statement that I would underscore.


|  Wicca organization is further hindered by the fact that most of their
|peoples were wiped out in the height of their organization .  

Another appeal to mythological history.  The peoples of Europe were no more
'Wiccan' than is the Pope a Satanist.


|  Wiccan covens are on a rise but there isn't a great amount of organization
|just yet although wiccans are pressing very much towards this end.

You might wish to note the type of organization that *is* emphasized within
very many Wiccan (generally Neopagan) groups.  It is called a 'network',
and it functions in much the same way as does any underground revolution
or mafioso.  Part of the reason for its success is its support of decentral-
ized authority and lack of rigid standards of thought or behavior.  This is
an issue which, if Wiccans forget it, will accomplish the devolution of
their faith.


| Is it in our communities?
| In a word YES. I have absolutely no doubt that it is in every neighborhood
|in america. 

I have quite a bit of doubt in this regard, though assuming that it is
prevalent cannot really be hazardous.  Befriending Wiccans or general
Neopagans would be of benefit to the Christian no matter how many there
are.  In many ways these two religious traditions need each other very
badly.


|  How related is it to Christianity?
|     Much of christian ritual (Christmas, Halloween etc) is taken from pagan
|roots and made to be christian so that we could attract Wiccans to our church.

I won't quote much more of this, but I do want to say that this comment and
its like proceeds from somewhat of a skewed vision of the history of the
Wiccan and Christian religious organizations.  Yule/Christmas is seen in
different ways by different religious bodies, for example, and there are
alternative hypotheses regarding the placement of the birth of Christ at
the Winter Solstice than merely a desire for conversion.


|Do unto others is equivalent to the threefold law
|which says "whatever you do unto another will return to you threefold".

They are not equivalent.  They proceed from different motives.  In the
first ('Do unto others what you would have them do unto you' or often
in the negative) it is an injunction from God, whereas the second
is not a moralism except in the nature of things, expressing a principle 
which leads the self-interested to consider the welfare of others.


|Wiccans marvel at the wonder of creation and the value of it in the same
|way any true christian would.  A true wiccan would tend to act in much the same
|way as a true christian, with love compassion understanding and respect for all
|the creations brought forth. The main difference (and for christians this must
|not be minimized) is that wiccans do not believe in sin (as such) and do
|not believe they need forgiveness other than to the person they wronged.

This is a very wonderful paragraph, full of truth as I see it.


| What about Satanic rituals (do they enagage in them?)
|       Wiccans mostly believe that Satan is something a guilty christian
|thought up as a scapegoat after he had sinned.  If Satan does exist he is
|,to a wiccan, most probably bad karma returned to them for something they did
|to someone else.
|       So performing rituals to Satan would be as laughable to them as
|setting a trap for the tooth fairy would be to us.

I have found this to be true amongst those in the Wiccan community.


|       Wiccans have a lot of rituals that are similar to 'Satanic' rituals
|because when early satanists began to form actual covens they borrowed
|rituals from the pagans (who better to borrow rituals from than the very
|people the christians were trying to fight?).  But in respect to sacrifices
|very few  wiccans do these, as it is contrary to their respect for nature to
|do so.

This is rather untrue and reversed, it seems.  The only types of 'Satanists'
were rebels against the oppressive authority of the Church and State, and
these individuals did indeed develop alternative religious paradigms and
practices in at least literal form, BUT PRIOR TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE
WICCAN TRADITION.  In other words, Wicca was founded upon heresy and this
heresy was carried out by the historical and philosophical founders of 
Satanism.  

Unable to bear the brunt of the psychosocial backlash, these Satanists
could not identify themselves as such and instead took the slightly less
controversial (yet martyred) label 'Witch' or 'Wiccan' so as to identify
more strongly with what they sought to promote as indigenous and nature-
centered religion.  Subsequent generations lost the meaning of the heretical
and Satanic elements within their religion and began joining the Christians
in condemnation based on ignorance (see the Church of All Worlds or most
Neopagan groups who spout faulty information concerning a root-tradition 
about which they know little).

Of course to the Christian without the ability to assess the situation these
divisions will amount to subtle shades of grey, since all who do not follow
the teachings of Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior as provided by God Almighty
(through the Church or no) within _The Holy Bible_ are essentially duped by
the Evil Father of Lies, and therefore whether they call themselves 'Wiccans'
or 'Heretics' or 'Satanists' or 'Buddhists', they are in essence 'Satanists'.

However, the intimate connection still retained between the Neopagan and
Christian traditions is exemplified by their mutual attitudes toward what
the Church considers 'Satanism'.  The Christian condemns it as against the
Law of God and characterizes it as coercive sociopathology and unrestricted
hedonism.  The typical Wiccan dissociates hirself with it and, when 
moralizing, condemns a large part of it for much the same reason.


| Sex magick (do they really believe in it?)
|       There is a 'fertility' festival called beltain which is annually
|celebrated. In the days of old, this was basically a massive orgy.  Todays
|witch does not engage in this much at all because of the shaping of their
|religion by christian ideals and the simple fact that being pagan doesnt
|mean you are any more or less sexual than a christian.

This may be an error of characterization, though certainly some Wiccans
(the Frosts?) promote a puritanism along with their Wicca.


|     Some couples do attempt to gain 'energy' through sex because of the
|belief that there are only so many ways to bring up your adrenanline level
|(which they believe increases magick energies), and making love is more
|enjoyable and possibly less dangerous than some of the alternatives.

What is missing here is that some who 'practice sexual magick' do so for
the sole purposes of using the energies of the sexual interaction in order
to fortify the personal will, projecting it thereafter in order to change
or encourage change in the material world.  The fundamentalist Christian
would of course cringe at the use of hedonistic means to manipulate the
creation, yet by and large the bulk of Wiccan magick is geared toward
precisely this end, even for ostensibly 'ecological' goals.


|Wiccans are just as eager to share wicca with you as you are to share 
|Jesus with them.

If 'share' amounts to 'demonstrate the absolute truth of', then I think this
is an overstatement.  Most Neopagans are hypersensitive to ANY argument for 
religious sentiments without very clear conditions for obvious and cooperative
exchange.  That is, even though some Neopagans will say that they are open
to various belief systems and will be willing to hear a modicum regarding
these (especially when they reflect their own tradition's form or content),
by and large they will not wish to delve the details, will absolutely *not*
want to hear what makes the speaker's tradition 'true' (having heard quite
enough of this in their former Christian home, thank you very much), and
will surely have a bias against hearing what any Christian has to say about
their tradition regardless of the presentation.

All that said, I think that the text of this FAQ is very wonderfully-worded
in that it does attempt to temper the tendency toward proselytizing which
some Christians bring to the exchange.


| Sacrificial tools (do they use any?)
|      In short NO. There are some that use them but they are in the minority.
|There is a ceremonial sword called and ATHAME that is used for drawing lines
|but if it is ever used to cut organic matter (like for cooking etc) it is
|considered unfit to be used for such a ritual.

This is somewhat misleading.  The athame is a magical dagger, perhaps similar
to the Tibetan Buddhist 'phurba'.  It is not only used for 'drawing lines'
but for cutting (e.g. the Circle, dividing out a 'space between the worlds' 
for magical workings) and for piercing (penetrating the Chalice, it is a 
very important phallic device.  

Also, this notion about cutting organic matter is rather specious.  I know
that some Witches (me for example) use their tools *predominantly* for
household tasks.  I have two athames, one which I use for spreading and
slicing (my butter knife) and one for cutting (a large paring knife -- I
use my fingers, fists and phallus for the penetrative workings).

I know that some feel that blood 'profanes' the athame (see the Church
of All Worlds' 'Neo-pagan Glossary'), yet I view this as quite extreme,
and I'm sure that some Wiccans even cut themselves on their blades for
ritual purposes.


| Is it okay to experiment with wicca?
|      Whats to experiment with? It is a philosophy not a toy. If you believe
|in it you do ,if you dont then consider yourself officially not wiccan.
|The only things you could experiment with is the rituals, and there is a good
|rule of thumb for this question. If it will take you away from God in any way
|dont do it. To put it another way (and this may be a bit extreme) if it wont
|bring you closer to God why are you doing it?

Wonderful!


|A FINAL NOTE:
|Wiccans use a pentagram as their symbol.
|The star is right side up which symbolizes the spirit over the flesh (as
|opposed to the Satanists upside down or inverted star(flesh over the
|spirit))

See the alt.magick Kreeeping faQ #05 on this issue.  This is a very
simplistic treatment of a very important magical and religious symbol.


|No symbol is evil in and of itself and should be treated as such.

I like this statement very much, though it would appear to be contradicted
by the previous association of the point-down pentagram with 'Satanists'.

This appears to be the end of the WiccaFAQ.  There was a post attached to
the end of the FAQ from alahelma@cc.helsinki.fi, which I greatly liked,  
regarding the origin of Wicca.  I have integrated it into the alt.magick
Kreeeping faQ #13 about Wicca's Roots).

Thank you for your ecumenical interests.  May the Light of God shine upon
the workings of your mind.  May the Dark tears of Goddess inflame your heart 
with passion in the love of your body.  May the Void of the Demon inspire 
you to become vulnerable in your divinity.

Lorax 
(nagasiva, tyagi) tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com