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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.traditional.witchcraft,alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.witchcraft,alt.religion.wicca
From: raven@solaria.sol.net (Raven)
Subject: Re: Post-Christian Wiccans and Neuvoreligious Authority
Date: 28 Dec 2003 03:31:48 -0800

"Aetyr"  wrote in message :
> "lorax666"  wrote in message :



>> Wicca is a subset of Neopaganism.
> 
> Since you aren't a scholar, or have any formal education on the
> matter, one can only assume that you make such incredibly wrong
> statements out of your own endless well of ignorance.  Wicca is a
> religion, recognized by the US government, and the British Gov.
> In the words of one English scholar, Ronald Hutton, University of
> Bristol, Wicca is the only religion that Briton has given the world.

I suspect that Hutton would have used the word "Britain" in that context.

More to the point, all your fulminations against Lorax are irrelevant.

"Neopaganism" refers to a whole category of religions, "new paganism",
specifically recent non-Christian (and thus post-Christian) religions.

Wicca is often cited as the first example of it that comes to mind.

Thus your objections that Wicca is a religion, recognized and so forth,
are not contradicted by, and do not contradict, Lorax's observation.

See the Alt.Pagan FAQ at ,
and look at question #3: "What are different types of paganism?"...

  Paleo-paganism... Civilo-paganism... Meso-paganism... Syncreto-paganism...

  Neopaganism: attempts of modern people to reconnect with nature,
  using imagery and forms from other types of pagans, but adjusting them
  to the needs of modern people.  Since this category is the focus of
  alt.pagan, the listing here is more comprehensive (though no listing
  could be completely comprehensive):

  Wicca -- in all its many forms
  neo-Shamanism
  neo-Druidism
  Asatru and other forms of Norse neopaganism
  neo-Native American practices
  the range of things labeled "Women's Spirituality"
  the Sabaean Religious Order
  Church of All Worlds
  Discordianism
  ....

Or see the Alt.Religion.Wicca FAQ at :

  1.2) What is Wicca and how is it related to Paganism?
  
  "Wicca" is the name of a contemporary Neo-Pagan religion, largely
  promulgated and popularized by the efforts of a retired British civil
  servant named Gerald Gardner.  In the last few decades, Wicca has spread
  in part due to its popularity among feminists and others seeking a more
  woman-positive, earth-based religion.  Like most Neo-Pagan spiritualities,
  Wicca worships the sacred as immanent in nature, drawing much of its
  inspiration from the non-Christian and pre-Christian religions of Europe.
  "Neo-Pagan" simply means "new pagan" (derived from the Latin _paganus_,
  "country-dweller") and hearkens back to times before the spread of today's
   major monotheistic (one god) religions.

-- 
___________________________________________________
"The more ignorant the authority, the more dogmatic it is.  In the fields
where no real knowledge is even possible, the authorities are the fiercest
and most assured and punish non-belief with the severest of penalties."
                                                        -- Abraham Myerson

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From: raven@solaria.sol.net (Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.traditional.witchcraft,alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.witchcraft,alt.religion.wicca
Subject: Re: Post-Christian Wiccans and Neuvoreligious Authority
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"Aetyr"  wrote in message :
> "Raven"  wrote in message :
>> "Aetyr"  wrote in message :
>>> "lorax666"  wrote in message :
>>
>> 
>>
>>>> Wicca is a subset of Neopaganism.
>>>
>>> Since you aren't a scholar, or have any formal education on the
>>> matter, one can only assume that you make such incredibly wrong
>>> statements out of your own endless well of ignorance.  Wicca is a
>>> religion, recognized by the US government, and the British Gov.
>>> In the words of one English scholar, Ronald Hutton, University of
>>> Bristol, Wicca is the only religion that Briton has given the world.
>>
>> I suspect that Hutton would have used the word "Britain" in that context.
> 
> Your suspicions are confirmed.
> 
>> More to the point, all your fulminations against Lorax are irrelevant.
> 
> They are completely relevant.

None of them refute the point that Wicca is a subset of Neopaganism.

Neopaganism is a category of religions.  Thus saying that "Wicca is a
religion" does not contradict its placement in a category of religions;
neither does saying it is a *recognized* religion, or saying "it is the
only religion that [Britain] has given the world."  Taking all you've
said as true [*], it does not contradict what Lorax said about which
specific *category* of religion includes Wicca.

[*] I could also dispute Hutton's statement, pointing to neo-Druidism and
Theosophy as other religions Britain has given the world -- but again,
even taking it as undisputed truth, it doesn't make Wicca non-neopagan.

> And its curious that it bothers you so much,

Given the fervor of your invective, you seem to be the one who's bothered.

I thought that directing you to the meaning of the term "neopaganism",
showing *why* Wicca fits into that category, might calm your fury.  Oh well.

> since none of it was addressed to you.

You posted publicly, to a newsgroup.  Anyone can reply to such a post.

> Unless you are he.

I'm not he, although he and I have been in previous discussions on Usenet --
assuming this to be the same "Lorax" (aka Tyagi), which seems very likely.

See 

>> "Neopaganism" refers to a whole category of religions, "new paganism",
>> specifically recent non-Christian (and thus post-Christian) religions.
> 
> What are your references for such nomenclature?

Have you looked in your dictionary?  Here are a few such listings:

Encarta World English Dictionary  (paste next 2 lines together for URL):
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/
DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=561532079

ne.o.pa.gan (plural ne.o.pa.gans)   noun  
 
modern adherent of pre-Christian religion:
a believer in a modernized version of the principles of old pre-Christian
religions, especially reverence for nature and natural objects rather than
worship of a transcendent supreme being
  
ne.o.pa.gan       adjective 
ne.o.pa.gan.ism   noun 


Infoplease Dictionary 
:

ne.o.pa.gan.ism  -n.
a 20th-century revival of interest in the worship of nature,
fertility, etc., as represented by various deities.


Dictionary.com offers both the American Heritage Dictionary (2000) definition
and the Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1996,1998) definition:
:

Ne.o-Pa.gan.ism   n. 
Any of various religious movements arising chiefly in the United Kingdom and
the United States in the late 20th century that combine worship of pagan
nature deities, particularly of the earth, with benign witchcraft.   [AHD]

Ne.o.pa.gan.ism, n. [Neo- + paganism.] Revived or new paganism.  [Webster's]


And the American Heritage Dictionary also explicitly calls Wicca "Neo-Pagan":
:

Wic.ca   n.
1. A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian
   western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and
   which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.
2. A group or community of believers or followers of this religion.


The Oxford English Dictionary cites usages of "neopagan" back to 1876,
under the definition of "Neo-" in both main section and supplement; in
the Compact Edition see p.1915 (Vol.I) and p.4025 (Vol.II) respectively.

(1876) "The 'man of feeling'... would in these days be a ritualist or a
neopagan."  -- Sir Leslie Stephen, _History of English Thought in the
Eighteenth Century_, II, 437.

(1877) "The neopagan impulse of the classical revival."  -- John Addington
Symonds, _Renaissance in Italy_, iv, 193.

(1880) "Pre-Raphaelitism... has got mixed up with aestheticism,
neo-paganism, and other such fantasies."  -- Justin McCarthy,
_A History of Our Own Times_, IV, 542.

(1888) "To classicalise, to neopaganise, his naive and natural Teutonic
genius."  -- Palgrave in _The Nineteenth Century_ (monthly), September, 346


Meanwhile, the Columbia Encyclopedia groups "Wicca" with "neopaganism":
 (article on "witchcraft"):

In the 20th cent. there has been a revival of witchcraft known as Wicca, or
neopaganism. This form of witchcraft has nothing to do with sorcery, and is
instead based on a reverence for nature, the worship of a fertility goddess, a
restrained hedonism, and group magic aimed at healing. It rejects a belief in
Satan as a product of Christian doctrine that is incompatible with paganism.


Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia: 
  [begin excerpt of "Neopaganism"]

Neopaganism (sometimes Neo-Paganism) is a heterogeneous group of religions
established as a revival of mainly European Paganism, which was once largely
extinct. It is called Neopaganism by academics and many adherents to
distinguish it from earlier forms of Paganism, from which it differs in some
significant ways.  [...]

History of Neopaganism
[...]
In the 1920s Margaret Murray theorized that a witchcraft religion existed
underground and in secret, and had survived through the religious
persecutions and Inquisitions of the medieval Church. Most historians
reject Murray's theory, while accepting some parts of it. Although there
were undoubtedly still some pockets of Pagan worship, it is highly unlikely
to have existed on as wide a scale as Murray proposed. 

This sparked interest reflected in novels by Mitchison ("The Corn King
and the Spring Queen") and covens were created along Murrayite lines. 

It is likely that this general atmosphere created the circumstances which
were necessary for the rise of Wicca. At the very least, it was fertile
ground for its introduction.  [...discussion of Gardner starting Wicca...] 

Wicca has been arguably the most well organised and influential form of
Paganism until the mid '80s, justifying a tendency by some Wiccans to
arrogance, expressed as claims to be the priesthood of the Pagan community.
Other Pagan traditions do not see it so.                    [end excerpt]


In fact, I have not found any such standard source that *excludes* Wicca
from the category of "neopaganism".  Isaac Bonewits has tried to redefine
"neopaganism" to start at 1960, which would exclude Wicca, and also all the
19th century neopagans (and the 19th century references in the OED) -- but
Bonewits seems to have been affected by Tim Zell / Otter G'Zell's claim to
have *coined the word* "neopagan" in 1968.  Apparently some still believe it.

> Besides your own ideas that is.

I did not write any of the preceding definitions, entries, or excerpts.

> Since they are your own ideas, you should state them as such.

Since they are not, but come from standard sources (dictionaries and
encyclopediae) as well as being thoroughly explained in pagan NG FAQs,
I state that these are the standard usage and meaning, on- and off-net.

> There are no formal names, sets, or subsets for any of this material
> that you are throwing out, other than your own opinion.

I have given you the URLs.  You may also check the OED (main and supplement)
for the portions I quote from it; see Compact Edition page numbers above.

>> Wicca is often cited as the first example of it that comes to mind.
> 
> That comes to YOUR mind.

  Or that came to the alt.pagan FAQ writers' minds, or that came to the
dictionary/encyclopedia writers' minds.  I'm aware that there was an upsurge
of Odinism in 19th century Germany, and a similar Scandinavian-ethnicity
(including Icelandic) movement that developed into what is now called Asatru
-- so Wicca is not *chronologically* the first neopagan religion.  However,
Wicca has received lot more publicity in the English-language press since it
went public in the 1950s, so it's not surprising that many people *think* of
it first when listing examples of neopagan religions.

> Reconstructed "classical" religions have been around a lot longer
> than than wicca.

But they did not and do not get as much publicity in the English-language
press, which is why they are not often used as the first example when
telling people what neopaganism means.  People have more likely heard of
Wicca than of the much smaller Mithraic movement, for instance; and they're
more likely to understand you if you use an example they've heard of.

>> Thus your objections that Wicca is a religion, recognized and so forth,
>> are not contradicted by, and do not contradict, Lorax's observation.
> 
> Which observation?

The only one quoted above.  It's the same single sentence that got you riled:
"Wicca is a subset of Neopaganism."  Did you forget that this was the topic?

> By damn, you'd get an F for the way you write.

  Not to date.

> You have to actually string ideas and proofs together....

See the above.

> just writing out complete sentances does not pass for discussion.

Yes, I've noticed.  Your post, for instance, has strayed completely off point.

> This is why people tend to drop you from the read posts....
> except the most persistant...you know that don't you?

No, I don't.  But if the trolls give up and go away, it won't bother me.



-- 
raven   |Wolfe said...  "Since I entered this room you have made nothing but
@       |mistakes. You were without courtesy, which was offensive. You made a
solaria.|statement contrary to fact, which was stupid. You confused conjecture
sol.net |with knowledge, which was disingenuous." -- Rex Stout, FER-DE-LANCE.