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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.religion.wicca
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (lorax)
Subject: Karma and the Wiccan Three-fold Law of Return (was Re: Cursing and ...)
Date: 26 May 1997 06:25:16 -0700

49970526 AA1  Hail Satan!

lorax:
#> ...negative and positive energies are attracted to me all the time.
#> some Indians say that neither negative nor positive karma is the goal,
#> but the burning off of all karma entire.  I tend to enjoy residing in
#> a confluence of dancing forces.

Peter Gauci :
#The Indians, by which I presume you mean Buddhists, 

I do not.  I mean 'those who have or continue reside in India'.  some of
these were and are Buddhists, some not.


#definitely regard good karma as being better than bad karma. 

not all make the distinction.  some consider karma to be entirely unreal.


#The whole notion of karma is very similar to the idea of the 3fold 
#law (though I think that number is more illustrative than factual).

that depends entirely on your interpretation and ideology.  there are
those who accept that 'karma' implies 'action' and that the association
of originating force or action is the beginning of the presumption of
an illusory stability surrounding the 'self'.  this illusory stability
is the basis for suffering (dukkha) and an important element of the
principle of no-self (anatman/anatta), central to the Dharma, or
instruction associated with Gautama Buddha.

the association of karma with some sort of 'cosmic justice' or 'law of
cause and effect' is particular, not universal.  the West, which has
a fixation on the moral where religious is concerned, seizes on this
notion and considers it definitive.  

the Wiccan Three-fold Law of Revenge is seen as a cosmic principle and
yet my experience is that it is strictly social, playing into people's
political games. 


#Second, "residing in a confluence of dancing forces"????? I'm afraid
#you've missed the point of eliminating karma. 

you have misunderstood me.  I don't try to eliminate karma.  as I don't
perceive there to be a persistent self I am incapable of having karma.
I prefer to play amongst the dancing and shifting patterns of energy
and power, not taking absolute responsibility for anything, not coming
to believe in the reality of the impermanent.


#This is exactly the opposite of what you appear to be doing. 

BINGO!


#The elimination of karma refers to the elimination of any causal 
#forces emanating from your "self" (although there is no self).

that is one interpretation, yes.  another would be the elimination
of ASCRIBING such causative factors to one's actions.  'do nothing,
and let nothing do you' rings of 'wu-wei' and the liberation that
is sometimes described as 'moksha'.  there are a host of possible
referents, possible overlaps.

 
#Finally I have to add a comment on the whole discussion of the 3fold law
#thing. Should we promote acting with decency and kindness towards
#others by threat of punishment? 

of COURSE not, and this is why I consider it a Law of Revenge.


#Granted, the 3fold law/karma thing may
#exist (my personal belief is that it does) and it is a useful notion to
#keep in mind. 

I have no evidence for it.


#However, basing one's interactions with the world on this
#alone is ultimately a cop out

no it isn't, it is just (divinely) selfish, possibly misguided.


#If you do (or don't) do something because
#you fear the consequences means that your actions lack conviction. 

absolutely.  no moral lapse there.


#Also, since karma is based on intentions as well as actions (I'm not 
#so sure how the 3fold law applies to this).

this is a VERY important point.  it seems to me that many Wiccans also
ascribe a great deal of importance to INTENT (and why not, this is a
fundament of Western justice systems) when assigning blame or coming
to warning and condemnation about particular 'harmful' (their
assessment) actions.


#By itself, the 3fold law/karma is a bad way to decide how you live your
#life, and what magics you perform.

if one believes in it fervently and pairs this with the Rede ("An it
harm none, do what thou wilt"), then it is a perfectly rational
system of decision by which to determine actions and behavior.  the
only real ambiguity therein is 'harm', and this can be rationalized
in a variety of ways so as to justify all manner of living (even that
which is blatantly ignorant of the sufferings on whose backs it is
wrought, such as is the bulk of modern America with its irresponsible
consumption and reproduction levels).

if the Wiccan paid as much attention to daily life as she may wish to
do in "magics" I think we'd see a true transformation of self and
society as Wiccan religion was truly integrated into a nature-loving
support beyond the anthropocentric ceremonial games it can sometimes
become.

blessed beast!

lorax of the evul wikkhunz
 tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com