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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.religion.wicca,alt.wicca,alt.traditional.witchcraft,talk.religion.misc
From: nocTifer 
Subject: Is Wicca a Christian Sect?
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:58:25 GMT

50031029 viii om

Shez :
#> ...The Christian god is not part of paganism, 

generally since the term 'pagan' derives in its usage,
immediately previous, from 'not Jewish/Christian/Muslim'
then what you are saying is fairly accurate. however,
the Jewish religious complex includes pre-monotheist 
deities like Asherah, so sometimes Neopagans include 
these and tread the bordlands of 'nonpagan', creating
Mooncakes and engaging in revivalism which may include
old versions of the god Yahweh. I've seen the occasional
poster talk about this God/Goddess pair before.

I've been considering creating something that means
"not-a-Satanist" to compare with 'pagan' and 'goyim'
since I've always found these 'not-us' terms irritating
and have only come to terms with them over the years
by exposure. what might it be like? what is the history
of the term 'goyim'? I'm not yet sure, but it has its
benign and outrageous aspects.

#> its another religion entirely, 

as I've tried to show, there are complementary elements.
the fact that Wiccans are by and large from Christian
family backgrounds and have such dislike for Christian
religion does not indicate that it is ENTIRELY separate.

#> Wicca is not some sort of Christian sect.

I think that this contention (I'm not sure that anyone
is here making it actually, but I'll explore it) is very
interesting to consider. it was my working hypothesis
when encountering Neopagans for the first time and I've
still found it to be a valuable perspective to see just
about any Neopagan practice in religious studies (these
are not the only religions I've studied/practiced). 

michael@thelastchurch.borg:
# Pagans are the original ,,,first Christians.  What you call witch
# today were the women walking with Christ before he was killed.
# They carried the message across Europe before anyone else and many
# were burned for knowing the truth.

LOL. your notions of history are amusing.

#     Any religion that stands under the Banner "Love is the whole of
# the law"  Is standing in the spirit of Christ.  

this 'spirit of Christ' seems a very plastic wash which might
cover over just about any socioreligious tradition. it may
serve you to describe people who don't like your ways to paste
it on them, but they will not find it complimentary to them.

to a certain extent I figure you know this and are engaging
the Formula of Christ within the Neopagan community, attempting
to witness the truth of love and bear the brunt of their bias
against Christian religion with which they will identify you.

# (No matter what name
# it uses.  How ever Christian sects do not teach what Jesus taught.
# They just use the name.   Christian means Christ like but have you
# ever seen a Christian of Organized Religion Who was Christ like?  NO..

you're apparently a non-churchified fundamentalist with a background
in prooftexting and an interest in pasting 'Christian' over the top
of whatever can be called valuable in relation to love. this is not,
generally, convincing where it argues that the ultimate ideal is not
to be found in the religion itself. these ideals usually aren't,
but the point is that the *aim* of the religious is for the ideal.



# ...a "religion without temples or churches.["]....

why organization should be considered the problem is somewhat of
a mystery here. in some ways you represent the epitome of what
Protestant Christianity tried to foment, perhaps manifested in
the more liberal sects of Anabaptists and Quakers. Baptists have
similar feelings about individual-relation-to-the-divine.
 
# If you are using wiccan as your slap in the face to Christians or a
# protest to Organized religion I imagine you would find it annoying
# to learn that you are following the teachings of Jesus.  

given that this is a forum for discussion of Neopaganism and in
particular Wicca, it is you who is doing the face-slapping and
witnessing here. you know, I am sure, that Wiccans will find
this offensive and upsetting, in part because they will not
agree with you based on their anti-Christian bias. to an extent
I'm helping you out here, because I think that this topic is
extremely important to be aired in the Neopagan community. 

if you want to maximize this facet of your witnessing activities
you can also venture into the Satanist camps like alt.satanism.
they *really* dislike people telling them that they are 
'actually practicing a kind of Christianity'. ;>

# But if you are seeking the truth of all things with out fear 
# You would be pleased to find a truth, not matter the source.

agreed. typically this amounts to a load of crap swallowed by
religious as fact. you don't seem to be too far from that in
your expression, but I like to afford respect to those that 
I encounter, effecting the Formula of Christ as I know it.

# And by the way, I am pagan, wiccan, and a witch. I am also a
# Buddhist and The Grand Wizard of the order of love.

as a kind of self-identity, one may incorporate all manner of
religious theme to one's path. however, this says relatively
little about one's societal connections (i.e. you're really
describing your spirituality, not your religious persuasion).
being eclectic, I can completely understand, though unlike
you, I clearly identify my religion as Satanist since it
includes very obvious inversions on typical Christian values.
we really don't know what you do that is religious. since you
eschew temples and churches so much probably you have very
little connection to religion and should be considered a
solitary (as a good number of those who post to usenet
religious forums also are).

#> If you accept Jesus, you accept the Christian god, 

sometimes these aren't divided (Godfather/Jesus).

#> the devil, Satan,

not always. some Christians don't accept the hell-rubbish.
just like some Jews don't think anything post-mortem occurs.

#> heaven, hell, 

some Christians are this-world-centered. admittedly 
few in comparison to those lost in fantasyland. this is
true with most religious. even Wiccans have their fabled
Summerlands.

#> male priests,  

sometimes female priests too, I gather. Presbys?
they're even hopping on the homosexual bandwagon in parts.

#> and the rest of the rubbish, 

why refer to it as rubbish? to the faithful, it is sublime.

# ...
# There is only one God and by any name we all seek the same truth.
# ...

this is where I think that some Neopagans and some Christians do
truly come together (God/dess). it is in part why I can see that 
there is value in unification-theology of Islam also: it expands
to incorporate the whole of human worship. outside of this, its
move to restrict and exclude is abominable. lest the Neopagan
virtuous think themselves immune, watch what happens when someone
suggests including Christian deities (/angels/saints/etc.) 
in somebody's circle. just the suggestion that it might be 
included in a *newsgroup* typically draws outrageous response.

one thing that I don't like about some religious, and this seems
to apply to michael here, is their propensity to PREACH, using
their preferred scripture to inform and *instruct* as if we were
asking for this. ininvited didactics are sometimes offensive.

in the parlance of the Formula of Christ this is called
'witnessing', and it has its place, especially where it is
specifically requested or the queries making its expression
possible are offered up. beyond this it is INTRUSIVE and
RUDE, and undesirable -- not an expression of love at all,
though it may masquerade as such, but that of deception and
noisemaking.

this is one of the characteristics which DOES seem to set most
Jewish, Wiccan and general Neopagan religious *apart* from 
most Christians:

	hatred of preaching and conversion-attempts

michael is ostensibly offering a mere defense here of the
intersection between Christianity and Wicca, but only insofar
as he is attempting to co-opt the entirety of Wicca into his
transcendental notions of 'the spirit of Christ'. by standards
of socioreligious study of any repute he has made no case as 
yet, he's just reforming terminology to refashion the past.

I could probably make a better one, michael. I would instead
offer up the features of *commonality between the religious
in their liturgy and practical worship*, which you have tried
to bypass in a thematic and overarching co-option. one of the
main ones that seems evident (especially comparing Gardnerian
Wicca and its offshoots and Roman Catholicism) is COMMUNION. 

blessed beast!

y
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.com@nagasiva
     nocTifer