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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick.tantra From: rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu (Goddess in Training) Subject: Re: High versus Low Magic(k) Date: 3 Jul 96 18:09:00 CDT Wizard (wizard@primenet.com) wrote: : In article <1996Jul2.185209.122080@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, : rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu (Goddess in Training) wrote: : >: Okay, you made several claims in the above paragraph. Let's look at them. : >: 1) Modern CM has its roots in hermetic & Kabalistic practices. : >: I agree. Of course, there have been (contrary to the "rules") many : >: women Kabalists, alchemists and magicians thorughout the ages. The very : >: nature of the Kabalah sees the Divine as hermaphroditic and there is : >: nothing in Hermeticism to show that it is hierarchical or patriarchal. So : >: your point is unproven. : > : >Name one female *Jewish* Kabbalist (the original Kabbalists). Sure, there : >were some Gentile Kabbalists, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a female : >Jewish Kabbalist until the 20th Century. I'm not saying that there : >weren't any, but that it is very unlikely for there to have been many. : Sorry that I don't remember her name off hand, but the Kabalist who taught : alchemy to some of the 1st century alchemists was a woman. She was later : killed by Christians. One isn't many. My point was that there weren't many. : >: 3) Most of the early practitioners of CM were male. : >: How can this be proven? Why do you even make this assumption without : >: any stated proof? If a man joins the National Organization of Women does : >: that make NOW a patriarchal organization? Mere membership by men does not : >: make it so. In short, your points here are unproven and illogical. : > : >No, merely having males as members doesn't make an organization : >patriarchal. But these were organizations that were predominantly male in : >a predominantly male-run society. It just makes sense that most early : >ceremonialists were male, since it takes access to certain amounts of : >education and resources that most females wouldn't have had in the past. : If you want to say that society was hierarchical and patriachal, I would : agree. But let's look, for a moment, at one of the archetypal CM groups, : the Golden Dawn. Their first initiate was a woman. Several temples were : run by women and at times women ran the entire order. This was hardly : patriarchal! Read _Women of the Golden Dawn_ for information on this. Exactly my point. You're proving my point for me even better than I could. Neither CM nor Wicca are inherently patriarchal. : >: 4) Most CM lodges are hierarchical. : >: Excuse me? You're talking about something going on today which, as : >: you admit, was "melded with Freemasonry." But your original comment was : >: about CM's "roots." : > : >OK, name me a CM lodge that existed before the Freemasons existed. : If they didn't exist before Freemasonry, how could they have been "melded" : into Masonry? Also, to answer you question you'll have to state when you : think Freemasonry began. The lodges, not CM itself. Sheesh. : >The : >only thing I can think of was perhaps the Knights Templar, but that's a : >bit tenuous, plus there really isn't that much evidence of what exactly : >they did. Also, considering that it's the end of the 20th Century, you : >*could* consider turn-of-the-century practices and lodges the *roots* of : >*modern* practice. So the Golden Dawn, for instance, would be a root of : >modern CM. If you want proof of the Golden Dawn being predominantly male, : >I've got the membership lists at home, and I could count all the male and : >female members. : But read what I wrote above. Women RAN the organization and many of : temples. That's patriarchal? I never said it was. But certain feminists would claim it was patriarchal because most of the members were men. Sheesh. Do you actually listen to anything else you say? : > I've never done that, but I've scanned through the lists : >and it is predominantly male. : > : So your saying that an organization with men must be patriarchal? I think : that's a rather sexist, anti-male attitude. True. So do I. That's what I've been saying. Do I need to yell to make it clear? NEITHER WICCA NOR CM ARE PATRIARCHAL OR HIERARCHICAL, ALTHOUGH SOME FORMS ARE. THE SAME SORTS OF CRITICISMS THAT SOME WICCANS APPLY TO CM TO CALL IT PATRIARCHAL AND/OR HIERARCHICAL CAN BE APPLIED TO WICCA AS WELL. THEREFORE, IT'S RATHER HYPOCRITICAL AND DISENGENOUS TO CALL ONE HIERARCHICAL AND PATRIARCHAL AND THE OTHER NOT. THIS DOESN'T MAKE THE ARGUMENTS CALLING IT PATRIARCHAL AND HIERARCHICAL SOUND OR EVEN VALID ARGUMENTS. Now is it clear? : > : >I haven't read Ginsburg, so I can't comment on him. I hope you're not : >including Murray in your list of scholars, since she's pretty much been : >discredited. : Please tell us by whom? The majority of the scholarly community and even some parts of the Pagan community, including Isaac Bonewits. : >How similar to Wicca were they? : Very In which ways? Could you be more specific? : >Wicca is a modern creation. Even though some elements (and : >it's debatable which ones) are ancient, there wasn't a religion called : >Wicca before Gardner. : You're definitely playing word games here. The word Wicca or Wicce : (pronounced "Wee-cha") is clearly identified as being ancient in the : Oxford English dictionary. It also clearly related to people who did : magick. You're right, there is no proof that people from 1000 years ago : called themselves "Wiccans," but there's also no proof that they called : themselves any other particular religion. But for all practical purposes, : they were, by definition, Wiccans. I'm not the one playing word games here. Of course there was a word "Wicca" before Gardner. The word Wicca applied to a male practitioner of magick and Wicce to a female practitioner. Nothing about any sort of religion there. You're just speculating now. Give me the soure for your claim. : >Gardnerian Wicca was the first kind of Wicca. : So state your sources, please. You have continually refused to do anything : but make claims with no support. Above I have clearly given sources: check : history books on alchemists for the name of the woman described; check : with the Oxford English Dictionary; check with Ginsberg; check with Women : of the Golden Dawn. WHAT ARE YOUR SOURCES FOR YOUR CLAIMS? Find me someone before Gardner who described a religion called Wicca that was similar Gardnerian Wicca. Not that the word existed. Not that there were Pagan religions that were in some ways similar to Wicca. Then I'll retract my statement that Gardnerian Wicca was the first kind of Wicca. : >The : >Kabbalah was developed by Jewish men. Jewish women were forbidden to : >study it. : I can understand your confusion due to your superficial understanding of : the Kabalah. That Kabalah, for thousands of years, has been part of : Judaism. Women were completely involved in this. Did it become patriarchal : later? Absolutely. Women were completely involved with Judaism? Or with developing the Kabbalah? Women were certainly involved with Judaism, but they weren't in general involved with the development of Kabbalah. Note the word "in general." This doesn't mean that no women were involved, merely that they were a very small minority. Even today within Orthodox Judaism (the branch of Judaism that contains the most Kabbalists), women are generally not permitted to study Kabbalah. Learn something about Judaism. Are you Jewish? If not, you can't even pull your age ad hominem attack on me--I've been Jewish all my life. : However, the notion of the Goddess in Judaism is clearly a development : from the Pagan middle-eastern cultures. For evidence try reading something : like The Hebrew Goddess by Raphael Patai or the magazine Biblical : Archaeology Review instead of the superficial hogwash that comes from most : pop-kabalists. I've read Patai's book. It's one of my favorite books. His book, though, isn't about "the" Goddess but about various Goddesses and female aspects/figures of the Divine that have been worshipped (or in the case of Lilith, feared) throughout the history of Judaism. Maybe you need to read a bit more carefully next time. : >: >Also, his conception of the God : >: >and Goddess has more to do with hermetic traditions (the union of the : >: >male and female principles, for instance), than with any ancient pagan : >: >religion. : > : >: Really? Then you haven't read much about Egyptian, Greek or Roman myths, : >: because they are all filled with legends of the God and Goddess coming : >: together, being separated and coming together again. It is part of the : >: universal, archetypal myth found in virtually all cultures. : > : >Really? I've never read any Greek or Roman myths where "the" God and : >"the" Goddess come together, are separated and come together again. I : >have, though, read many myths where *individual* gods and goddesses : >(i.e., Cupid and Psyche) come together, are separated, and come together : >again. The idea that all gods are "the" God and all goddesses are "the" : >Goddess is not an ancient belief, as far as I've been able to detect. (I : >won't bring Egyptian myth into this, since I'm not familiar enough with : >it to discuss it.) : Oh please! Your consistent trying to play word games does not become a : "Goddess in Training." I'm not the one playing word games. You are. There is no overbearing goddess or god in Greek or Roman mythology. There are, however, individual gods and goddesses. If you can't tell the difference between the two, then it's not my problem. And I would add the the key words in your quote : are that you either are "not familiar enoughŠto discuss it" and that there : are things which you've not "been able to detect." Unlike some people, I'm willing to admit the gaps in my knowledge. I don't claim knowledge i don't have. If you think that is bad, again, that isn't my problem. : >IMHO, the Triple Goddess is often used to justify gender distinctions and : >keeping women in their place. Wicca (excluding Dianic Wicca for the : >moment) can be seen as a mystery cult that claims to be honoring and : >giving power to the feminine but is actually used to keep women in the : >same place socially. It gives women a position of power within the : >Circle, thereby giving them the illusion that they actually have power in : >the world. : Let me get this straight. You're saying that because you believe some : women get the illusion of power in the world due to their power in the : Circle that Wicca is bad? No, I'm saying that it's one criticism that people have applied to Wicca. : >I personally don't believe either CM or : >Wicca to be "patriarchal" or "hierarchical," or at least, if they are so, : >they are equally so. : Unfortunately, this is a typical attitude of people in the U.S. Everything : is either X or Y. There is no space for individuality or shades of grey. I agree with this completely. : Are there CM and Wiccan groups that are patriarchal and/or hierarchical? : Absolutely. I would never deny it because I know too many such groups. But : there are also CM and Wiccan groups that are neither. Every group is : different from others and rather than lumping them all together as you : have done, I prefer to examine each group individually. Again, I agree with this. : >My point was that Wicca has similar, and in some : >cases the same, historical roots as CM, so for a Wiccan to accuse one of : >being patriarchal and/or hierarchical is naive and disengenuous to say : >the least. : NO. You're just plain wrong. It WOULD be disengenuous for a Wiccan in a : group that was patriarchal and/or hierarchical to denounce others for : holding the same attitudes. But to simply paint all Wiccans (and CMers) : with your broad brush is not only unfair, it is clearly wrong. : Many years ago I was in a ritual where the HPS said, "We don't do any : patriarchal Kabalistic stuff." Then she began the ritual with the Lesser : Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram. That, IMNSHO was disengenuous and : misleading. But I see this less and less as years go by. I'm glad it's been decreasing from what you've seen. Unfortunately, I've seen the exact opposite--the general ignorance of Pagans appears to grow each year. (Of course, this could be due merely to the fact that my knowledge has been growing throughout the years as well.) : >: And why do I take such a strong position on this? Well, I have a hunch : >: that you're fairly new to CM and the Craft. I've been involved in it for : >: some 25 years. We are no seeing the false rewriting of history in regard : >: to the 1960s. There's little I can do about that. But when people who : >: claim to know what was happening 25 and more years ago and give no support : >: for their opinions, I think it is fair to challenge them. : > : >I've never been a Wiccan or a Ceremonialist, although I've been : >interested in both for about 8 years now, : Thank you. I think that explains it all. Ad hominem. If you're going to continue to make ad hominen attacks such as this one and the others you've made, I'm going to have to quit arguing with you since it would be pointless to continue.. --'--,-{@ --,--'-{@ --'--,-{@ Renee Rosen rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu "Was I a witch? Goddess in Training In the dark days, I heard Astrud and Astarte on irc voices . . ." http://lark.cc.ukans.edu/~rrosen --Art Bears @}-,--'-- @}-'--,-- @}-,--'--
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