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To: alt.magick From: Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) Subject: Re: Armchair Magicians Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 17:49:19 GMT On Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:47:43 -0800, "Tom"wrote: >"Gnome d Plume" wrote in message >news:3c87e2a3.17048716@trialnews.peoplepc.com... >> >> *****No. We can never forget Tim Zell--and he wouldn't let us if we >> tried to. > >You, know, my first awareness of your stuff came from correspondence in >Zell's files, way back in the early 70's. > >After all those years, you still come across just the same. > >If magick is supposed to evolve consciousness, how come it didn't in your >case? > ******Tom: Actually I'm glad you mentioned that. In 1971 Fred Adams and I took emergency action to expell Jefferson F_ _k Poland's *Psychedelic Venus Church* from the *Council of Themis,* which Fred had founded, in order to protect the nascent NeoPagan Movement from radical political (drug and sex-perversion) exploitation blatantly instigated by a self-proclaimed professional agitator. In looking back on this action--regardless of it's outcome, which was to destroy the Council--I have no serious regrets. In actual fact, what subsequently happened to Mr. J. F. Poland tends to make Fred and I look rather sage and wise in retrospect. However, I am not going to go into the details of that sordid development. I leave that research--and whatever apology you might consider rendering---to you. ******* Good Magick! Gnome d Plume Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3C8951BC.393@luckymojo.com> From: catherine yronwode Reply-To: cat@luckymojo.com Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick Subject: Re: Armchair Magicians References: <3c8663ed.4463148@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <20020306201048.04541.00001821@mb-mw.aol.com> <3c87a5ea.1500712@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3C87D8A3.31CF@luckymojo.com> <3c87e2a3.17048716@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3c88f671.1143907@trialnews.peoplepc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:53:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.150.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1015631608 209.204.150.200 (Fri, 08 Mar 2002 15:53:28 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 15:53:28 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:290580 Gnome d Plume wrote: > >"Tom" wrote: > > >"Gnome d Plume" wrote: > > > No. We can never forget Tim Zell--and he wouldn't let us if we > > > tried to. > > > > You, know, my first awareness of your stuff came from correspondence > > in Zell's files, way back in the early 70's. > > > > After all those years, you still come across just the same. > > > > If magick is supposed to evolve consciousness, how come it didn't in > > your case? Tom, please don't be an ass. > Actually I'm glad you mentioned that. In 1971 Fred Adams and I took > emergency action to expell Jefferson F_ _k Poland's *Psychedelic > Venus Church* from the *Council of Themis,* which Fred had founded, > in order to protect the nascent NeoPagan Movement from radical > political (drug and sex-perversion) exploitation blatantly instigated > by a self-proclaimed professional agitator. In looking back on this > action--regardless of it's outcome, which was to destroy the > Council--I have no serious regrets. In actual fact, what subsequently > happened to Mr. J. F. Poland tends to make Fred and I look rather sage > and wise in retrospect. However, I am not going to go into the details > of that sordid development. I leave that research--and whatever > apology you might consider rendering---to you. ******* I am not at all sure that this long-ago incident is what Tom was referring to in his snarkiness, but Fred and Poke tossed Jefferson Fuck Poland out of the Council of Themis with good reason. Tim defended Poland back then, as i recall, but he has since come to see that Poland truly had no place in the neo-pagan movement and was better placed behind bars. Anyone interested can surely find out more on the web or through police records. With regard to the Council of Themis, i speak as an otusider, simply a subscriber to some of the early pagan zines and a member of the science fiction community at that time; with reagrd to Jeff Poland, i speak as one who was personally acquinted with, and deeply distrusted him, and was not surprised when the truth came out about his sexual abuses. cat yronwode Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) Newsgroups: alt.magick Subject: Re: Armchair Magicians Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 01:00:26 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c89599a.26533371@trialnews.peoplepc.com> References: <3c8663ed.4463148@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <20020306201048.04541.00001821@mb-mw.aol.com> <3c87a5ea.1500712@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3C87D8A3.31CF@luckymojo.com> <3c87e2a3.17048716@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3c88f671.1143907@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3C8951BC.393@luckymojo.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 75 Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:290594 On Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:53:28 GMT, catherine yronwode wrote: >Gnome d Plume wrote: >> >>"Tom" wrote: >> >> >"Gnome d Plume" wrote: > >> > > No. We can never forget Tim Zell--and he wouldn't let us if we >> > > tried to. >> > >> > You, know, my first awareness of your stuff came from correspondence >> > in Zell's files, way back in the early 70's. >> > >> > After all those years, you still come across just the same. >> > >> > If magick is supposed to evolve consciousness, how come it didn't in >> > your case? > >Tom, please don't be an ass. > >> Actually I'm glad you mentioned that. In 1971 Fred Adams and I took >> emergency action to expell Jefferson F_ _k Poland's *Psychedelic >> Venus Church* from the *Council of Themis,* which Fred had founded, >> in order to protect the nascent NeoPagan Movement from radical >> political (drug and sex-perversion) exploitation blatantly instigated >> by a self-proclaimed professional agitator. In looking back on this >> action--regardless of it's outcome, which was to destroy the >> Council--I have no serious regrets. In actual fact, what subsequently >> happened to Mr. J. F. Poland tends to make Fred and I look rather sage >> and wise in retrospect. However, I am not going to go into the details >> of that sordid development. I leave that research--and whatever >> apology you might consider rendering---to you. ******* > >I am not at all sure that this long-ago incident is what Tom was >referring to in his snarkiness, but Fred and Poke tossed Jefferson Fuck >Poland out of the Council of Themis with good reason. Tim defended >Poland back then, as i recall, but he has since come to see that Poland >truly had no place in the neo-pagan movement and was better placed >behind bars. Anyone interested can surely find out more on the web or >through police records. With regard to the Council of Themis, i speak as >an otusider, simply a subscriber to some of the early pagan zines and a >member of the science fiction community at that time; with reagrd to >Jeff Poland, i speak as one who was personally acquinted with, and >deeply distrusted him, and was not surprised when the truth came out >about his sexual abuses. > >cat yronwode > >Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html ******Cat: We both knew Jeff Poland. I spent two hours in coffee house down in Tallahassee Florida back in 1961 listening to Poland describe in loving detail the great "career" he had as a professional political agitator: the best chics, the best recreational "stuff", room and board, pocket money--and all you had to do was "make trouble." I tried to warn Tim Zell about where this guy was really at and Zell seemed to agree. He told Fred and I that he was "concerned" about Poland's activities in the name of "Paganism"--but then when Poland and his crew began to merge with CAW, Zell would not reply to several urgent calls over two weeks running. Fred was completely exasperated and I was thoroughly disgusted. This is how the Themis War started. What Tom Schuler picked up on was an angry private letter I had written to Zell at the outset of this mess. Zell published it without my permission because--even though it was critical of him--he knew it would embarrass me. Tommy Schuler has balthered on about this letter (with no understanding of the background behind it) for years! My letter was written at the peak of frustration over the Poland issue, similar to when you cut loose on Joel Biroco. I may have blown my stack with Zell, but it was certainly in a good cause. ***** Gnome d Plume To: alt.magick From: Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) Subject: Re: Armchair Magicians Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 21:15:14 GMT On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 12:10:36 -0800, "Tom" wrote: > >"Gnome d Plume" wrote in message >news:3c89a3f4.45569534@trialnews.peoplepc.com... >> On Fri, 8 Mar 2002 21:37:29 -0800, "Tom" >> wrote: >> > >> >Don't'cha just love dish? Occultism has so much dish. >> > >> >Whatever happened the the Council of Themis, anyway? >> > >> >What do you consider to be "drug and sex-perversion"? >> > >> ******We've suggested that you go find out---so why don't you? >> >Indeed. You can read Jeff Poland's own confession and the story of his >> >arrest for molestation online here: >> > >> >http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/NudistHallofShame/Clitlick2.html > >I did. That's some good dish, alright. I didn't see any drug talk, >though. Where did that enter the picture? *******You seem to have a good (although selective) memory of the early 1970s NeoPagan scene. Why don't you find out what Jeff Poland and the Psychedelic Venus Church were actually doing in San Francisco? As I recall they weren't exactly keeping their activities secret.***** > >And I still don't know what happened to the Council of Themis. Any dish >there? > ******* Frederick Adams, a romantic idealist and Pagan philosopher, having founded the council as an international confederation of Goddess-venerating, ecology minded, NeoPagan groups, was willing to risk the council dissolving rather than see it taken over by those with anti-social (illegal) , radical political and perverse sexual not-so-hidden agendas. We were disappointed but not surprised that the council did not survive the expulsion of PVC--but under the circumstances there seemed no other way. If they had merged with CAW then Fred, the council's founder, would have had to resign and see his dream taken over and perverted by those who were using "Paganism" as a front for socio-political activism. In this case it was better to dissolve a noble "Round Table" before it became a Star Chamber or a Mafia. ******* Gnome d Plume From: Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) Newsgroups: alt.magick Subject: Re: Armchair Magicians Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:57:01 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c8bbc4a.30405703@trialnews.peoplepc.com> References: <3c8663ed.4463148@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <20020306201048.04541.00001821@mb-mw.aol.com> <3c87a5ea.1500712@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3C87D8A3.31CF@luckymojo.com> <3c87e2a3.17048716@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3c88f671.1143907@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <99hi8.99$Ed.117294@news.uswest.net> <3c89a3f4.45569534@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3c8a7496.12047368@trialnews.peoplepc.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 56 Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator!feed2.uncensored-news.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:290834 On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:26:48 -0800, "Tom" wrote: > >"Gnome d Plume" wrote in message >news:3c8a7496.12047368@trialnews.peoplepc.com... >> On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 12:10:36 -0800, "Tom" >> wrote: >> >> > >> >I did. That's some good dish, alright. I didn't see any drug talk, >> >though. Where did that enter the picture? >> >> *******You seem to have a good (although selective) memory of the >> early 1970s NeoPagan scene. Why don't you find out what Jeff Poland >> and the Psychedelic Venus Church were actually doing in San >> Francisco? As I recall they weren't exactly keeping their activities >> secret.***** > >Well, if you don't want to share now, that's OK. I like dish and all, but >I never go searching for it beyond my own convenience. Besides, I think >that, after the child-molesting bit, mere drug trafficking is a minor >outrage. ****The drugs were related to underage sex.****** >> >And I still don't know what happened to the Council of Themis. Any dish >> >there? >> > >> ******* Frederick Adams, a romantic idealist and Pagan philosopher, >> having founded the council as an international confederation of >> Goddess-venerating, ecology minded, NeoPagan groups, was willing to >> risk the council dissolving rather than see it taken over by those >> with anti-social (illegal) , radical political and perverse sexual >> not-so-hidden agendas. We were disappointed but not surprised that the >> council did not survive the expulsion of PVC--but under the >> circumstances there seemed no other way. > >Then he succeeded in sabotaging you. That's too bad. I can understand why >that would happen, though. When someone shits in the pool, nobody wants to >swim there any more. ****And, if you are lucky, you can get your name off the pool--which is what we did.******* > >I remember many of Fred's drawings of voluptuous nude women with no pubic >hair. I guess that might have attracted some folks like Poland. > >The early '70's were rife with radical groups that espoused all sorts of >hare-brained notions. It was impossible to operate an interfaith council >of fringe religions without dealing with many attempts to hijack it. > ******Exactly. The published account of all this can be found in Hans Holzer's *The Witchcraft Report* p.b. circa 1972. ***** Gnome d Plume Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3C898138.481F@luckymojo.com> From: catherine yronwode Reply-To: cat@luckymojo.com Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick Subject: Re: venus church? Re: Armchair Magicians References: <3c8663ed.4463148@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <20020306201048.04541.00001821@mb-mw.aol.com> <3c87a5ea.1500712@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3C87D8A3.31CF@luckymojo.com> <3c87e2a3.17048716@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3c88f671.1143907@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3C8951BC.393@luckymojo.com> <3C8972B9.3CE39A94@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 03:15:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.150.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1015643743 209.204.150.200 (Fri, 08 Mar 2002 19:15:43 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 19:15:43 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:290610 Joseph wrote: > > > Gnome d Plume wrote: > > > > > > In 1971 Fred Adams and I took > > > emergency action to expell Jefferson F_ _k Poland's *Psychedelic > > > Venus Church* from the *Council of Themis,* > > are you aware of the psychedelic venus church evolving into a group > called the temple of the golden calf? Was Jeff Poland involved by then, or did this "evolution" take place after he was arrested for molesting children? cat yronwode
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