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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.sufi,alt.islam.sufism,alt.religion.gnostic,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (haramullah)
Subject: Taqiyyah, Ibn Arabi and Sufism; Religions of Love and Judgement
Date: 23 Dec 1997 22:19:52 -0800

49971012 aa2 

assalam alaykum, my kin.


savushoon@juno.com (Seyedeh Parichehr Kooshesh):
# Did you know Ibn Arabi Said in his book

which book?


# "Before today I used to criticise my companion,if my religion was not 
#  the one which he followed.  But my heart changed to accept every 
#  image, so pastures for the carefree lovers and convents for the monks.
#  A house of idols and the idol house in Taaif, the tablets of the 
#  Torah and the mushaf of the Quraan. I folow the religion of love 
#  wherever it takes me, so all religion is my religion and my belief."(*37)

I love this, and that is why I wanted to know which book.


# Further more Ibn Arabee warned his follwers from believing in one
# particular religion and disbelieving in all others.

religion is not composed strictly of belief.  that which is belief-only
is just philosophy.  religion encompasses all of life and affects one's
behaviors and attitudes, down to the very strictest values.  indeed if
one perserveres, religion is a social system though it may include one
or more personal disciplines and roles.


# He said in al-fusoos:

is this the name of another book?


# "Beware of restricting yourself to one particular religion and 
#  disbelieving in everything else, so that great good would be 
#  missed by you, indeed you would miss attainment of knowledge of 
#  the affair in the form he is following.  Rather be ready to 
#  accept all forms of belief.  This is because Allaah is higher and 
#  greater than to be comprehended by one belief to the exclusion of 
#  others.  Rather all are correct,and everyone who is correct 
#  receives award, and everyone who is rewarded is fortunate, and
#  everyone who is fortunate is one with Whom He is pleased."(*38)

again, exquisite, thusfar Ibn Arabi has seemed to me the most loving
of all sufi poets, his integration of religion and heresy, of the
ways of discipline and eroticism are admirable and constitute a
unique and perfect path which is seldom approached by any mystic.
I will study him more, along with Osho and the Great Beast Crowley.


# Even though I haven't known you to admit to following any particular
# religion at all.  You still dare to criticize others that follow one. 

is religion not a way of life?  perhaps the Crustacean follows the din
of Allah rather than human codicils.


# Ostad Elahi says that you can pick a religion follow one, (but it has to
# be an authentic one) paganism is not a religion, 

while atheism and whatever "Ican'tspellverywellism" is are obviously not
religions, I wish to ask you what you think that "paganism" is.  you see,
many people have been accused of "worshipping pagan idols" by haughty and
proud People of the Book who think that "authentic religion" is contained
within a narrow band of "acceptable" (usually Western) religious standards.

in relation to this a counter-culture of those who detest these judging ways
has grown up in response, and they call themselves "Pagans" and, in some
cases, "Neopagans".  what do you know of "paganism" that you can say it is
"not authentic religion"?  instruct us as to the nature of your authenticity.


# And you pick that religion, follow it's laws, and eerything.  But at the 
# same time, do not be fooled by not seeing and attaining the light and 
# knowledge from other religions.  

tradition, yes, I have heard of this attitude and admire those who can
follow out its rigors, and yet I am probably much more adverse to what 
seems exclusivism than our Lobster friend, finding my spirituality in
Allah alone, and yet I am often inspired when I spend time with those 
who are truly dedicated to their gods.  what power!  what virtue!  until
I begin to hear them speak of "other religions" and "heresies".  then
suddenly they become callous, heartless, judging.  very often when I ask
them if they have spent time with these "other religious" they tell me
that they have not, that they are forbidden to do so, that it is too
difficult, etc., etc.  I feel sorrow for what seems ignorant rejection.

and what is religion that it must be exclusivist?  how can we draw
such rigid boundaries between people that we come to lose our humanity
and ability to accept others for the values and beliefs that they have
chosen for themselves or that they have been inspired to take up?  I
will not tell them they are wrong, though I may have difficulties with
their manners and ideas.  let us dialog, let us come to some resolution
with love in our hearts, rather than prejudice and judgement.


# >I did hear that Moslems only pray to Allah 5 times a day

this is not strictly true.  some Muslims pray more than this (7 times,
for example).  some extend their prayer beyond the formal salat.  what
*is* prayer?  *is* it a formal enterprise?  I think that the form provides
a structure within which we are given time for communion with the One
where otherwise in our busy lives we might not otherwise engage this.
it is like a cauldron within which we may brew up the Feast of the Gods
and serve this to the multitudes.  some structure is necessary in order
to contain the potent substance.


# >interested in cutting down. I also have an excellent Koran but I 
# >prefer the commentaries 

this is true for me also.  in fact I prefer the sufi poets to the 
scripture of the Western religious, though I set myself an understanding
and appreciation of this latter for my discipline.  if I can come to
accept what I have learned (from parents, friends, and, yes, even from
my gods) as twisted and wrong, then I think that it is not unreasonable
to ask this of another dedicated to Allah.  

the way I reconcile it is this: at a certain level, all gods are the
manifestation of the Unity of Being.  that Unity of Being is, to me,
Allah.  thus when I see Visnu or Pan or Satan or Kali or Sarasvati or
Bridhe or Loki then I try to know them as they seem and as they are one
in the beauty of the One.  when I walk into the chamber of demons, the
mosque of Allah, the church of Jesus or the temple of Buddha I am 
respectful, attempt to understand the local religious custom and abide
it, and appreciate the beauty of this most special expression of Allah
to the hearts of the worshippers who have accepted me, the Forbidden
of Allah (who accepts the heresy that others will not), into their midst.


# "Because angels won't come, if picures are in the masjid" That made me
# sooooo angry.  But I did not say anything..But that reallly made me
# angry.

why did he want angels to come?  what do angels do for him?  at a certain
point religion becomes like a public school -- we are held to the level
of restriction engaged by the slowest and least able to accept.  Abdul
cannot abide pictures of starving children in the masjid, Miryeh will not
tolerate a convert from the enemy faith, Yeshua requires no mention of 
Iblis during salat.  and on and on and on.  doors closing, it is a very
difficult thing to reconcile our differences at times, is it not?
 

# anyways, not all muslims are like him, there are a lot of good friendly,
# kind, understanding, sweet muslims.  

this has also been my experience, though I haven't challenged these people
severely by showing them who I really am very often.  occasionally I will
have a Muslim visitor into the temple here or speak openly with one in the
course of my daily life.  when I am open and honest then the reaction is
often alarm and correction: "you are trapped by djinns and destined for
the Eternal Flames!"  no matter that until this time we have spoken of
Allah, islam and even sufism in glorious ways, like brothers and sisters
until I run into their limitations.  it is to be expected.  the religious
are walking the Right Path and they need to cleave to it tightly.  I am
the Forbidden and do best to watch closely my taqiyyah and my heart.

by the way, I loved your joke. :>

peace be with you.

haramullah
	tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
-- 
(emailed replies may be posted); http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi; 408/2-666-SLUG
  join the esoteric syncretism in alt.magick.tyagi; http://www.abyss.com/tokus 

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From: Alaoudin23 
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.sufi,alt.islam.sufism,alt.religion.gnostic,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Taqiyyah, Ibn Arabi and Sufism; Religions of Love and Judgement
Date: 25 Dec 1997 17:58:42 GMT
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In article <67q9i8$c23$1@shell.accesscom.com> haramullah,
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com writes:
>
># "Before today I used to criticise my companion,if my religion was not 
>#  the one which he followed.  But my heart changed to accept every 
>#  image, so pastures for the carefree lovers and convents for the monks.
>#  A house of idols and the idol house in Taaif, the tablets of the 
>#  Torah and the mushaf of the Quraan. I folow the religion of love 
>#  wherever it takes me, so all religion is my religion and my belief."(*37)
>
>I love this, and that is why I wanted to know which book.
>
This comes from the Tarjuman al-Ashwaq, the Interpreter of Desires

Alaoudin23