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TANTRISM - attempt to an ovweview -2-

From: (Kivivalli Antti)
Subject: Re: TANTRISM - attempt to an ovweview -2-
Date: 22 Dec 1995 10:36:26 +0200

I'll put my nose into this discussion between nagasiva
 and Dinu Roman ... I
don't like strange crosspostings, but as I don't know from where this
has originated, I'll leave the groups as they are.

First Dinu and then nagasiva:

># the existence of the Unique Absolute as being composed of two essential 
># realities, both eternal but of a complementary nature: 

>Not three or four?


>How did you determine it was just two essential realities?

Well I've learned this, but what else is needed? There is the One,
which is the symbol of the origin and unity of everything and the One
has two sides: consciousness and energy. Consciousness seems to be the
fundamental property of human beings, but without energy nothing would
happen, so it is needed.

># SHIVA - The Supreme Spirit, The pure Sentient Consciousness - 
># and SHAKTI - the Nature, the sphere of objectivity.  

>Sounds like spirit/matter to me.

Yes, if you put it like above. In my model Shakti isn't the 'sphere of
objectivity', but the objective world is created by Shakti FROM Shiva
and according to the will of Shiva. So Shiva is the material and and
also the primary efficient cause of creation.

>Doesn't Siva impregnate Her in their Great Rite?

># 	Due to the similitude that exists between Man and Universe, 
># these two Ultimate Realities have their reflection in every human 
># being.

>You don't think this is just an anthromorphism upon the gods?

I do think it is. More to follow:

>Can we talk to Siva and Sakti, or are they 'abstract principles
>of the manifest cosmos' without true awareness/perception?  

They are principles, we can't talk to them in a normal way, but as
Shiva is the Consciousness, He is conscious about everthing we say,
whether we talk to Him or not.

>either of them take human form at any time, like Visnu?  

All the time. :) Not like the myths about Visnus incarnations and
after all Visnu is just another name, another aspect of the
Consciousness, pointing to the quality that Consciousness is

>Or can
>we perhaps speak with Siva more easily because He *is* conciousness?

Right - see above.

>With Sakti easier cuz She is *everything manifest to our senses*?

No, because Shakti is a 'blind force' without consciousness - but
Shiva and Shakti are never separated from each other, they are just
two philosophical concepts or ideas about the One.

># The aim of TANTRA is to provide the necessary procedure to 
># discover these Realities within the practitioner's being and to 
># realize the fusion between them and their Cosmic correspondents.  

I wouldn't be worried about the 'discovering', the main thing is the
fusion. :) Of course the discovery happen in a way or another, but the
main thing is the process of transformation.

>We can't discover them within the manifest cosmos, perhaps as a
>result of disciplines focussed more on outer things (sex, whatever)?

Yes, we can discover them everywhere, for they are everywhere, but to
do the fusion we must go inwards and that's not sex to me.

>#  The supreme state is not attained by turning away from the world  
># (which is te attitude of other spiritual systems that consider the 
># world as an illusion)    but by realizing that the Absolute manifests 
># in all things. Its skillfull means teach how to use the appropriate 
># Teaching for the particular circumstance.

One doesn't need to turn away - actually it is very bad for the
society if those who are seeking for the supreme state turn away from
it - but one must go also inwards. There is a saying that God or
Supreme Consciousness is hidden within our I-feeling, which is a very
logical and practical notion to me and the inner practices of Tantra
are there to help us to make this journey and reach the state which is
closer to us than anything else.

	      Antti Kivivalli -
sfnet.keskustelu.vegetaristit - areena on avoin (ei
     don't forget The Vegetarian Pages -

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