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Path: ultra.sonic.net!news From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.magick.tantra,alt.religion.sexuality,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.consciousness.mysticism Subject: Tantra and Magic, Sex Magic (was Re: "Tantra has nothing to do with sex") Date: 1 Oct 1999 07:43:51 -0700 Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 314 Message-ID: <7t2hb7$gkc@bolt.sonic.net> References: <01bf0629$03a90ea0$4cc9adce@crc3> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bolt.sonic.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick:160705 alt.magick.tyagi:18312 alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic:11652 alt.magick.tantra:10731 alt.religion.sexuality:36170 talk.religion.buddhism:92467 alt.consciousness.mysticism:30648 49991001 IVom "Jim Raynor"writes in alt.magick.tantra: # "Tantra has nothing to do with sex" I've seen said in this newsgroup. and every time it is a ridiculous statement, though there is truth to distancing an *identification* of tantra with sexuality, especially a narrow and conventional significance for either term. # Can someone give practical techniques of Tantra magic the question is somewhat awkwardly phrased and specialized in its request, so you may not get the kind of response that you desire. I think it is particularly applicable for this forum and so take a great deal of space and time here (rather than spend it on the flameworks in other threads) in addressing it in detail. "tantra magic" is a peculiar reflection of the usage of usenet as a forum of interaction. if you examine the FAQ (located at this URL: http://www.luckymojo.com/altmagicktantrafaq.html) you'll see that the newsgroup "alt.magick.tantra" was used in place of "alt.magick.sex" and therefore what you're really asking about here is sex magick, which some people might equate with "tantra magick" if they use the terms synonymously. "sex magick" per se appears to most often relate to the usage of sexual energy and fluids for the purposes of causing change in the world through symbolic and/or associative means. when it is related to 'tantra' this change is usually psycho-spiritual in nature (i.e. mystical), yet sex magick can have absolutely nothing to do with spirituality -- it can focus on completely materialistic and acquisitive or interactional results such as the procurement of wealth or the decimation of an enemy, the exploration of the underworld or the domination of one's mate. some practical techniques (spells) of sex magick and magick that has nothing to do with sex can be found at the following URL: http://www.luckymojo.com/spells.html (the sex-related spells are under the "RED" category). many of these have been collected from the alt.magick.* hierarchy of usenet. however, you appear to be talking here about a more mystical objective: # that allows the soul to be liberated and expand that has # nothing to do with sex? hindu tantra Hindu tantrics seem to regard magic per se as a byproduct of mystical endeavor, rather than something which infuses the accomplishment of mystical disciplines per se. this is at odds with how a variety of Western occultists (e.g. Aleister Crowley) have protrayed their mystical systems -- Crowley places yoga as a *precursor* to magical practice and defines 'white' (apparently 'good' or 'recommended') magick as that which has as its goal the accomplishment of his particular mystical goals. Hindu yogis seem quite fond of pranayama (breath control and discipline) to achieve certain states of awareness, meditation, and in some cases, asanas or bodily positions maintained through the course of breathing and attentive shift. these typically do not include sexuality at all. buddhist tantra as a mystical application, the focus on yidams and recitation of mantras are practical magical techniques used by Buddhist tantrics. when I was empowered by a lama in the Nyingmapa lineage of the Vajrayana he gave us all an awareness spell (mantra) related to Yeshes Tsogyal, who was the focus of that evening's empowerment. you can presently find this data at: http://www.luckymojo.com/tantra/9305.nyngma1.tn and http://www.luckymojo.com/tantra/9305.nyngma2.ncr in no case did sexuality per se enter into the spell. or the predominantly meditative techniques outlined therein. "christian tantra" I am not yet aware of the details of what should be called 'magical' techniques amongst Christians such as Savory or Noyes. Savory appears to have been a breast-lover and I think sexuality was an integral element of his techniques. sri catyananda would have more complete information here. Noyes favored what I would call tantra inasmuch as he sought to refine male technique (Male Continence) and was the innovator of utopian communities that experimented with disciplines of romance and relationship (e.g. Complex Marriage). neither called his activity 'tantra', though I would personally classify them as types of de facto tantrism. hermetic (neo)tantra the hermetic tantrics such as Randolph, Reuss, Crowley, Spare, Grant and many others (whose names I omit solely for the saving of space) have approached the subject of magick with a great deal of variety. some seem never to mention the term, though delving somewhat into sexual techniques of an obvious magical character for the purposes of mystical achievement. indeed, many of these seem predisposed to placing a *moral* (if not metaphysical) limitation on the use of sexual states and energies for magical purposes, while others are quite plain in their support of ordinary magical objectives as well as taboo-breaking for the purposes of personal liberation. until modern times these primarily mystical individuals (often of Judeochristian and/or quite syncretic religious persuasion) did not identify what they were doing as 'tantra', though their focus on a unification with the divine and an integration with the cosmos through sexual and nonsexual methods allows the categorization (and I am not the first to make it -- see King's text on 'Western Tantra'). it should be noted that there is a healthy cross- breeding of Western occultism and Eastern tantric traditions (which individuals such as Mr. Magee and, when he is not too busy dissing members of usenet, Tzimon Yliaster, can speak of with some authority). satanist (neo)tantra I understand the Satanist tantra which I am learning to include quite a bit of magick, though of particular types. I can't be sure at present why there would be any limits to what magick one might use within satanist tantra, because the aspirant will have different needs at different times and this will range the spectrum of magical result. my focus here will be on what I would call 'agapic' aims. the particular practical techniques which have served me well have been * the use of tarot in becoming acquainted with my dedicatory deity (first through the deck and then in direct conversation) -- there was no consistent sexual element to tarot reading; for more information about tarot, consult the alt.tarot FAQs in the alt.magick REFerence files, obtainable from the alt.magick FAQ at: http://www.luckymojo.com/altmagickfaq.html * the invocation of gods and goddesses for the purposes of integrating their power and nature into my own -- sometimes this did include sex, such as when my partner and I would invoke deities prior to making love, but it did not always, such as when I was present at rituals and was infused with gods such as Siva or Odhin. * visualizations in exploration of the Underworld, particularly the Faerie and the Qliphotic Shells, though my work with the latter was hampered by by difficulties with creationist and linear cosmological temporal mythical systems. * divination using numerology and a general symbolic interpretation of the world around me (this could be called the discernment of omens and signs, though my experience has been rather more blatant and direct than these would seem to indicate, my goddess speaking to me at times in no uncertain terms and, when through symbols, with an unambiguous clarity which these terms do not usually convey); this has also included gematria, which application to the English language I have already found immense benefit in the interpretation of my tantric partner's nature and theme while in reverie after a sojourn to her abode and a reflection on how the number 108 resolved to 'come'). if any are interested I'll be happy to post the poem in which this gematria appeared, especially if sri catyananda does not mind ;> -- sexuality was not usually a part of divination, though occasionally it would become one it was not at all necessary. * love spells; these have become important in the relationship I have with sri catyananda. we have utilized magical potions (oils) and herbs (incenses) to intensify the fusion of our lives; we have sold one another our souls, which I would consider a magical act; we have exchanged declarations of our dedication and used magnetic stones and sand in a composite spell of lovemaking; we have bathed in an herb bath designed to enhance love and intimacy; we have constructed a special bedchamber taking cues from ancient taoist manuscripts with altars for our dedicatory deities -- I'd say that most of these magical techniques did NOT require sexuality in the strict sense, though they did were at times included in or accompanied it. # I had thought that sexual transmutation was the principle # element and/or force in Tantra. that all depends on what you take 'sexual transmutation' to mean and what tradition of tantra you come from, as I hope I have illustrated with my response to your inquiry. from a traditional perspective of authoritative lineages (often characterized as 'Hindu' or 'Buddhist'), sexuality in the strict sense of physical coitus seems to play a rather minor role, though its symbolism is pervasive and its relation to the context of certain important rituals and activities (in particular the Panchatattva Rite and less well-known Buddhist practices) is not disputed. when accepting a broader significance for the term 'sex', then we will discover that much more of that which is included in even traditional Asian lineages qualifies, since the combinative and amatory nature of the practice serves what can rationally be called sexual motivations (albeit through metaphor or with nonphysical entities, or using conceptual and graphic tools that refer directly to conjunction of *some* entities or principles). where the lineage or instance of tantra expands beyond the traditional (whether de facto or neo-tantra), sexuality in the strictly physical sense (coitus) seems to become a much more prominent element of practice, and this may be one of the reasons that there is such great concern on the part of traditionalists -- it may prove more volatile and therefore result in precisely the OPPOSITE of the typical religious aspirant's aim. after all, the predominant objective of many religious, both nominal tantrics and non, is transcendentalism, and it is quite obvious that fucking as a part of one's "spiritual practice" is somewhat at ODDS with this general goal. natural animal behaviors as a *method* would seem to draw one to rather enjoy the physical world and one's life experience within it, and this can run directly contrary to the desires of those who wish to escape it, transcend it, or in some way decrease their attachment to it. think what would happen if one took up fucking as a religion and also believed in reincarnation: endless opportunity to worship. ;> and yet in their wisdom the religious have also indicated that the buddha Gautama and Indian tantric gods have communicated the diversity of methods available to those living through these troubled times. Sakyamuni is said to have, through his compassion, offered innumerable skilful means (upaya) to accomplish the extinction (nirvana), and some Indian gods and subsequent mystics thereafter are said to have explained the liberating value of sex and other physical activities -- approaching that which "corrupts" directly and utilizing it as a means of freeing oneself. often this is accompanied by warnings that going it alone is dangerous and that some kind of guidance is probably necessary to avoid the shoals of debauch and fanaticism, hubris and self-deception in the navigation of the mystical enterprise. this advice is extremely valuable. on the other hand, a focus on that to which one is attached can yield extraordinary results. it is said amongst taoists that to find yin one may best seek yang, and this principle can carry into the realm mystical as well as the ordinary world, however contrary to our 'common sense' this may appear. we might presume with transcedentalists that the best which might be achieved by 'the dedicated discipline of fucking' is to have had enough of it, to 'get it out of our systems', or 'to come to such a full experience of it that it may be abandoned'. yet where I think this perspective falls short is in its primarily OTHER-worldly focus. we are always moving away from where we have come (that horrid meatspace from which so many cyberspace citizens flee; that 'dense classroom' of the spiritualists) rather than, perhaps more in the tradition of certain yogis, 'being here, now'. it is for this reason that I do not prefer to separate out 'the soul' from 'the body', instead taking a clue from religious groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses who understand that the body is a *part* of the soul. 'liberation' or 'release' thereafter takes on meaning unencapsulated by the transcendentalist vision. sex as a part of a means of achieving this could become an example of extreme measures for extreme times. those daring these risky climes may prove better at navigating them over time. 'release' becomes a matter of one's position with RESPECT to life, objects and sexuality. releasing such a strict hold on them, being at peace with and relaxed with them rather than straining at, obsessed with, and therefore always struggling to escape them, leave them behind, or to denigrate them, allows a more fluid departure and return to their joyous ecstasies and painful trials. om namah kaliya nagasiva ___________________________ "'I can't believe it,' said Alice. "'Can't you?' the Queen said.... 'Try again; draw a long breath, and shut your eyes.' "Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said; 'one can't believe impossible things.' "'I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.'" Lewis Carroll -- emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired
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