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From: Re OÕStat 
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.polyamory,alt.magick.tantra
Subject: Re: Sex and Neo-Tantric Gurus (was Swinging and Neo-Tantra...)
Organization: Tantric Psychological Association
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In article <8b8o20$ohs@bolt.sonic.net>, spam@luckymojo.com wrote:

> 50000321 IVom Happy Spring Equinox!
> 
> Re O'Stat :
> >>>>>However, most of the 'hard core' teachers and practitioners of
> >>>>>Neo-Tantra whom I have met, heard about or studied with are
> >>>>>also swingers.
> 
> what do you mean by "hard core" here? like in X-rated films? ;>


LOL! ThatÕs pretty good.
But what I mean by that are the teachers who go beyond the 
letÕs-swim-with-dolphins or if-we-chant-we-will-all-feel-good variety. 
That is, they are quite knowledgeable about using energy raised during a 
wide variety of Tantric activity, from mantra to maithuna.

There are people who I personally do not consider hard core in any way, 
for instance, the authors of  _Egyptian Tantra_ and _Pleidian Tantra_.



> 
> Re O'Stat  Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:18:14 GMT:
> >...[neo-tantric leaders] use arguments which, in the past, were used 
> >to defend swinging in order to support working with multiple partners 
> >in Neo-Tantra.
> 
> could you provide some examples of the types of arguments used?
>

I promise to do so in another post. Unfortunately I am short on time.

 
> >Further, although many of the leaders I've met, studied with or heard 
> >of are, in fact, swingers, only a few of them (such as Jwala and the 
> >leaders of Tantra Club) publicly admit to this.
> >
> >...I'm not going to out those who do not wish to be outed....
> 
> >...most participants are not swingers....
> 
> >...a small number [of Neo-Tantrics] are (perhaps a greater or lesser 
> >percentage than outside the Neo-Tantric community) -- most are not. 
> >However, many (I can't say most because I don9t know most) Neo-Tantric 
> >leaders (i.e. Teachers) are. They do not try to force their lifestyle on 
> >others. In fact, it has been my experience that they often try to keep 
> >swinging as separate from Neo-Tantra as people of other spiritual 
> >practices try to keep their lifestyle a separate thing.
> 
> if this is true, then how did you come by the information? did they
> "out" themselves to you, confiding that they were *really* involved
> as a teacher within tantric groups because they liked the sex and
> didn't care much about the disciplines, results, or relationships?
> or was it your inference? or something else?

In workshops they have, on occasion, discussed this simply as : yes, 
this is also something I do (or did). It was not a major deal. I also 
have met participants at workshops who have claimed that other teachers 
have said the same. I have also met swingers who have talked about their 
partying with some high-profile teachers.

Could they have been lying, misrepresenting or mistaken? Yes, but the 
information they have given me on other matters has been accurate and I 
know of no reason not to believe them.

> 
> >I have been to numerous classes and worked with several teachers....
> 
> but you have said that these teachers to whom you refer keep their
> swinging separate from that which they teach (workshops, etc.), so
> how did you intersect with this data?


Again, it was mentioned in passing, usually only when brought up by a 
participant. It is not stressed, it is not encouraged, it is simply 
mentioned on the way to another topic/exercise.


> 
> >...Most people who are swinging do not broadcast that they are 
> >swingers. Neither do Neo-Tantric teachers. 
> 
> then how did you come to find out about it? what do you think these
> teachers *themselves* thought swinging was? what did they think of
> sex-obsession or sex-focus? did they equate sex with tantra? did they
> see intimacy and stable relationships as somehow inimical to tantra?

Answered above.
In talking to the people described above, I got the impression that 
swinging, to them, meant going to parties with many people. Some (very 
few) equated sex with Tantra, but most did not. Some had stable 
relationships, some did not.

As a sidelbar, a friend of mine took a class in Tantra in San Diego. The 
class by a well-known teacher consisted of three hours of ragging on men 
(due, my friend felt to the break up of the teacher with her husband). I 
have found that teachers are people and are not perfect. If we look for 
perfection in our teachers we are, I believe, destined to be 
disappointed.


> 
> >I know of one couple who, about 10 years ago, was very big in the 
> >swinging lifestyle. They did not advertise it. However, they were famous 
> >for writing books about taking large quantities of various vitamins and 
> >other (non-psychoactive) substances.
> 
> is there anything else which characterizes, in your mind, "the
> swinging lifestyle"? how do you feel that this may be at odds with
> the STATED claims of neo-tantric groups and teachers, as well as
> the traditional tantric schools?


I think that what a person does on his or her own time should be his or 
her own business. Further, different NT groups and teachers have 
different claims.

If you look at more traditional schools, I think you may find that the 
chela is kept very busy for a period and does not have time to go to 
parties. When tantric sexuality is introduced, it may be with one 
partner or differing partners. It becomes a practice and techniques 
coming from the universal love of shakti rather than setting up a 
particular relationship. An example of this was novelized in the now 
out-of-print book, _Cosmic Sex_ by ÒOmega Kane.Ó ItÕs a little-known 
(IÕve only seen one text reference it) but fun read.


> 
> >Even among Neo-Tantrics, swinging is frowned upon. So, for the 
> >most part, those Neo-Tantric teachers who are involved simply 
> >don't mention it.
> 
> why do you think that swinging is frowned upon in neo-tantric groups?


Ah! ItÕs because of USA Today!
Well, hereÕs what I mean by that.
Today, in the U.S., everything has to be done fast.
People eat fast food. Comedians donÕt take time to set up jokes, they 
tell one liners. Computers were supposed to make work easier. Instead, 
we just got more work to do. Cell phones were supposed to be a 
convenience and instead people are on them doing work before and after 
regular work hours. People no longer have time to read in-depth articles 
in newspapers, instead they want USA Today. The L.A. Times, once one of 
the great newspapers in the world, has printed less and less news in 
order to compete with USA Today. They failed and were recently bought by 
the Chicago Tribune syndicate.

So how does this relate to swinging being frowned upon by neo-tantric 
groups? In the past, people would spend many hours practicing tantric 
techniques before being involved in tantric sexual practices. During 
that time, the students were given a chance to ask questions, clear out 
old training and be indoctrinated into a new philosophy. 

Now, I am not saying that they would be indoctrinated into swinging. 
Rather, most people today (in the U.S., at least), by the time they get 
into Tantra, have had at least 18 (and often much more) years of 
societal indoctrination. Read that as a de facto, ultra-conservative 
Christian attitude. This attitude pervades all facets of U.S. society, 
from politics to television. 

Spending time in Tantric ashrams would allow people to break down their 
conservative (Vedic) indoctrination. But here, in the U.S., people want 
things fast. People just do not show up for classes that meet once a 
week for ten or twenty weeks. They want everything in a weekend seminar, 
one that lasts from Friday night to Sunday afternoon. 

As a result, most people retain a 
sex-is-only-good-within-a-committed-relationship and that Tantric 
sexuality should only be practiced with such a partner (ignoring the 
fact that many people involved in such classes seem to practice serial 
monogamy.

ThatÕs my 2 Rupees.



> 
> Re O'Stat  Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:48:51 GMT:
> > 1) In my experience, most hard core Neo-Tantra teachers [have been]
> >    involved in the swinging lifestyle.
> 
> 'hard core' and 'swinging lifestyle' are ambiguous here, aside from
> your previous comment that swinging focusses on sex and multiple
> partners.


IÕve described both here and elsewhere.


> 
> > 2) In my experience most people involved in Neo-Tantra are not involved 
> >    in the swinging lifestyle.
> 
> then this is a very important consideration. what does this SAY about
> the neo-tantric community that its leaders are swinging while the
> whole community frowns upon it as an activity and these leaders hide
> what they are doing?


I donÕt think it says anything. I do think, from the tenor of your 
questions, that you have a preconception as to what it should mean.
If somebody is a school teacher and is also a swinger, does it matter? I 
donÕt think so--unless the teacher is trying to encourage students to 
join the lifestyle. That is not part of the curriculum, and should not 
be covered. If it is, the person should be fired. Similarly, what a 
Neo-Tantric teacher does on his/her own time should not matter (IMO).

Correct me if IÕm wrong, but it would seem, however, that you have 
decided that it should matter. Further, it seems like this bothers you a 
great deal. 




> 
> > 3) I have never seen any Neo-Tantric teachers try to get students, 
> >    followers, etc. involved in swinging.
> 
> so is it a habit that they can't break, something they think is
> 'reserved for the adept', or some kind of taboo-breaking activity?
> in other words, are we talking about a facet of corruption or a
> facet of expertise? does the role of neo-tantric leader somehow
> require swinging as a part of its performance? or are we really
> delving into the seamy underside of the New Age Sex Gurus?



From what IÕve seen, it is their way of having fun. Since I said ÒmostÓ 
and not ÒallÓ hard-core Neo-Tantric teacher either are, or have been, 
swingers, it obviously means that swinging is not requited. And I do not 
see this as being a Òseamy underside.Ó Do you consider having sex in an 
uncommited relationship seamy?



> 
> > 4) However, when Neo-Tantric teachers support working with multiple 
> >    partners, many use the same arguments that in the past have been 
> >    used to support swinging. That does NOT mean they are supporting 
> >    swinging in these arguments, only that they are using the same 
> >    arguments and replacing swinging with some types of Neo-Tantric 
> >    work.
> 
> I think that a distinction should be made between "working with
> multiple partners to do tantra" (by whatever meaning other than a
> strict 'sex=tantra' equivalence) and "swinging" as you have
> defined it. my reasoning is that swinging necessarily involves
> a focus on sex per se, while working with multiple partners to do
> tantra may include sex as a route to doing something else (such 
> as learning to let go of relationships or move more deeply into 
> intimacy within them, or to strengthen one's volitional skills).

I would agree with you for the most part. For example, I once dated a 
woman who would get intense menstral cramps which, she said, could be 
overcome by sex. If she went to a swingers club to alleviate her 
cramping with a goal of getting rid of the pain, I would have to say 
that pain relief was the goal, not sex per se. Other people find sex 
relaxing. Others find it good exercise. Sometimes (unfortunately, IMO), 
it is done to please a partner even though there is no actual desire for 
sex. Thus, swinging can have a focus other than on sex, although I would 
agree that such is the most common focus.


> 
> here is what I can see of the neo-tantric community in its sex-focus:
> 
> 	* Sex
> 	  we have those who equate tantra and sex, in which case
> 	  it makes sense that swinging would be part of it; the URL 
> 	  you provided for Tantric Club in another post to this 
> 	  thread is a good example here
> 
> 	* Renunciation
> 	  we have those who are looking to enhance their emotional
> 	  disconnection from the world (as occurs in any ascetic
> 	  practice: renunciation) through engaging by separating 
> 	  physical and personal intimacy by multiplying or making
> 	  more repulsive their sexual encounters; perhaps the best
> 	  example of an extreme here is those who somehow mix
> 	  the taboo or repulsive -- homosexuality, promiscuity, 
> 	  sex with the aged, with the diseased, with the dead, 
> 	  with other species, with spiritual entities like gods
> 	  and demons, sex involving pain and/or humiliation, 
> 	  consumption of human flesh, wearing of human skin as
> 	  garments, living in refuse heaps, living in cremation
> 	  grounds, etc.
> 
> 	* Love
> 	  we have those of us who are looking to enhance our 
> 	  emotional depth and intimacy with the world 
> 	  (particularly other human beings) through engaging in 
> 	  conventionally intimate encounters in attentive and 
> 	  meditative ways; this group often mentions that there is
> 	  simply not enough personal TIME to multiply partnerships
> 	  in part because sexuality is only one part of this type
> 	  of relationship (or becomes redefined in a much more
> 	  broad way than physical sensation-seeking will allow);
> 	  many of the neo-tantric groups that I recently quoted
> 	  to the alt.magick.tantra newsgroup seemed to be examples
> 	  of this type of tantra
> 
> 	* Religion
> 	  besides at time incorporating a good deal of the previous
> 	  groups (in part because the neo-tantric community is to
> 	  a great extent inspired by the traditional religious
> 	  tantra of India), the neo-tantric religious seem to be
> 	  looking for particular mystico-religious experiences or
> 	  states of consciousness which may be achieved through
> 	  the combination of ritual sex and specific mystical
> 	  disciplines and practices; 'Western Tantra' groups as
> 	  are associated with Francis King and the Hermetics, or
> 	  nontraditional gurus like Osho, Muktananda, and others,
> 	  may be good examples of these.
> 
> I would call these "types" or categories of tantra, within which
> we see the broad sociological spectrum of neo-tantra. most groups
> will probably qualify in some respect for more than one of these
> characteristic types, though some certainly do specialize. if you
> would consider any one of these to be "hard core" above the others,
> please share this with us and explain why.
> 


I think you have done a great job categorizing. It reminds me of an old 
Sufi saying: Beware my son of too much study or you may become a scholar.

Many years ago, some people programmed a computer with the techniques 
found in all of BachÕs fugues. The computer then printed out a new fugue 
following all of BachÕs techniques. It sounded horrible. When the people 
who did the program rexamined the original fugues, they discovered that 
Bach frequently broke the ÒrulesÓ of the fugue.

I regret that I know of no group that neatly fits into your categories. 
All of them are blends.


> > ...I know of one teacher of Neo-Tantra who has switched to teaching 
> > a form of Taoism and another who has switched from the system of 
> > the Bihar School of Yoga to that of Osho, all within the past few 
> > years. Neo-Tantra teachers may not change at the rate computers 
> > change, but they do evolve.
> 
> part of the problem with the New Age community, and with the neo-
> communities generally, is that they are prone to charlatanry. 
> however, part of what *I* think should qualify someone for the
> "hard core" characterization is duration of association with the
> subject matter of their instruction, whatever it is they teach.


I think that is a very valid comment.


> 
> namaste
> 
> nagasiva

Aum Namah Shivaya,

Re