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Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.magick.sex,alt.magick.tantra Subject: Loveless Tantra? (was The Ens Seminis) Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 136 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <8b0quo$iv3@bolt.sonic.net> References: <7igA4.9436$_P5.1482124@news2.mia> <20000318013030.19925.00001457@ng-cm1.aol.com> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:03:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 953413397 208.201.224.36 (Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:03:17 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:03:17 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:22126 alt.religion.sexuality:40976 alt.magick.sex:83362 alt.magick.tantra:14765 50000318 IVom uncited: >>We want to walk throuhg the Path of Initiation? Well, that is why exist the >>sacrament of marriage. Man and woman, united sexually, form a Divine >>Androgenous Being, a male-female Elohim. The two halves, separated since the >>dawn of life, are united for one instant to create, to recreate themselves, >>to regenerate themselves. This practice must be done in marriage (man-woman) >>and there is NO need of guru or anything like that. sexofundamentalism. your restrictions are your own. sienna555@aol.com (Sienna555): >Ok so what is to be done with a loveless marraige where the partners are >together because of societal pressure more than love? "done with" is the operative phrase. who is doing with it? if the partners wish to engage tantra, then the first obstacle will be their antipathy and the obvious artificial nature of their relationship. unfortunate though it may be, they deserve the type of relationships that they choose. I would encourage them to change or replace them if they are unhappy with them. >Is this or is this not contrary to the needs for Maithuna? >Or is Maithuna the prescribed cure for an unhappy union? there are some for whom this context of tantric sexual union would be PERFECT. that is, if there ever was lustful attraction between the two people, it has apparently vanished or evaporated. the state of being married implies that they may have acclimitized themselves to one another and therefore have worked out at least some of the practical details of coordination (though some of the rudiments may need to be rearranged). perhaps indeed you have the cart before the horse? why should the happiness come before the practice? why not work with what one has and then let the happiness come as an INDICATOR that what they are doing is correct? the subject of "maithuna" is a sensitive one in tantric cultures on account of its typical translation as 'ritual intercourse', and yet there are symbols and 'lesser manifestations' of this element of the Five M Tantric Rite that have nothing to do with sexuality per se (being more symbolic or sensual than sexual). as I understand it, and I am but a student, maithuna varies in intensity and challenge depending entirely on the condition and coordination of those who are participants in the rite. some traditions proceed from gross to subtle, others proceed inversely from subtle to gross in their focus on interpenetration and resolution. for example, the rank beginner amongst the latter may find it best to use a symbolic stand-in for maithuna, whether something like the Wiccan Chalice and Athame, some focus on statues or paintings of deities, or a magical communion symbolized by agrarian standards such as grains and fruits as part of a festivity. to the former, this symbolic development would be considered "advanced practice", largely because the two traditions function best for two people of differing CONDITIONS. the RESULTS of the practice are what determine which series (if not some other) that will be best for the person. it is for this reason that such heated debates arise as regards the "recommendability" of physical sex as a part of tantric spirituality and ritual. for one condition this is how to BEGIN, those focussing on the intensity of sexuality bringing their lust for sensation and ecstasy into the realm of spiritual enterprise. for another condition physical sex is best AVOIDED, substituting symbols (food products, for example) in place of the stepped-up energy of intercourse. too often people of differing conditions generalize that everyone is alike to them and recommend their own procedures or condemn what they deem as 'irresponsible practice', ignorant of this variance in the needs of aspirants. >Is this or is this not contrary to the needs for Maithuna? >Or is Maithuna the prescribed cure for an unhappy union? so when you ask whether a dysfunctional relationship is contrary to "the needs of maithuna", there are too many variables to adequately respond. the only way to know is to get to know the individuals very well and discover their condition and whether and how such a practice would benefit them as a pair. this is also a good reason that tantric relationships and advice are so difficult to successfully negotiate via computer: there are too many variables which only direct and immediate involvement will allow all but the clairvoyant to surmise. >Anyone who has lived in the Western world has had their energy messed up by >advertising, social pressures, and parental mistakes. How does one overcome >this mess to be able to perform such a task? here I presume that "such a task" relates to the ultimate achievement, the ideal which is often associated with maithuna, called 'The Great Rite', 'the Great Work', and any number of other names by syncretists and eclectics of the past. the way that one overcomes the conditioning of one's culture is through dissolving them either by focussed awareness alone or during performing actions contrary to these conditionings. it is for this reason that taboo-breaking is associated with some kinds of tantra. how far one needs proceed in this de-conditioning in order to attain to the ultimate is truly unknown and varies. the state of liberation is rare enough and insufficiently understood that quantifying the necessary criteria is usually only attempted by the guru of any particular chela (and that by insight and a comparison with the tradition and experience she brings to bear). >IMO, this sort of union is nearly impossible in Western society. if you would care to say something about what "this sort of union" includes, as you see it, then we could all benefit from your knowledge. give us some glimpses of what you consider to be the "goal state" or "goal experience" of the adept. I tend to agree with you that there are many obstacles to such an achievement in modern civilization, especially as may occur in dense urban centers where communities are fragmenting as they are compounded. and yet, it is just this kind of fragmentation that allows the strong conditioning of small communities and families to retain less of a hold on individuals. simultaneously this will make possible more occurrences of sociopaths and vagrants (restless wayfarers without rudder or development) as well as those for whom the path of tantra is extremely well-suited. the traps of mass-culture are less intrinsic and clutching to the individual, and with a learned discipline instilled from educational, parental, or even ecclesiastical experience, she may find a way to turn the freedom afforded by disintegrating society into a means of self-liberation (thus the recommendation that extremes such as sexuality will become primary means of instruction in the Kali age -- that period of 'darkness, disintegration, and degradation' through which we are now said to be passing). namaste nagasiva -- mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired
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