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From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.sexuality,talk.religion.newage,talk.religion.misc,alt.magick.tantra
Subject: Learning Trad or Neo Tantra (was Question....)
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50000317 IVom kali

Re O'Stat :
>Although there are many types of Tantra, in the West, and particularly 
>in the U.S., there are two broad categories: Traditional Tantra and 
>Neo-Tantra (AKA 3California Tantra2)

are most of the neo-tantrics in or around California? the Muirs do
their thing in Hawaii, don't they? perhaps they started in CA.
with this broad categorical distinction I agree.

>Traditional Tantra is a system of spirituality which includes such 
>things as worship of the gods and goddesses, techniques of magick, 
>healing methods and divinatory methods. Traditional Tantra is not simply 
>a few exercises or methods, it is a way of approaching life. Unlike many 
>other approaches to life, Traditional Tantra (IMHO) focuses on what 
>could be termed the 3scientific method.2 That is, merely because some 
>book or some person says something does not mean it is true. Rather, 
>they are merely guidelines. Only personal investigation, experimentation 
>(aka ritual) and successful result can yield truth.

most of these things don't really separate all neo-tantra from
traditional tantra. some neo-tantric paths are inclusive of the
whole lifestyle, for example, and include the particulars that
you mention, inclusive of an empirical standard of operation.

>One of these investigations includes that of sexuality and the varioius 
>things which go along with it, including medicine, healing, energy work, 
>better relationships and more. 

it seems a great deal of neo-tantra focusses on sexuality as a means or 
end, so this is a probably characteristic difference as a generality.

>Tantric practices may produce 3sidhis,2 magic powers, in some 
>practitioners. This are considered to be a hindrance to spiritual 
>development. IMHO, however, if you do not get caught up in them and 
>leave the spritual path, they can be quite remarkable. In other words, 
>they can be developed and used, although that is not the intent of 
>Traditional Tantra.

this is the traditional description of tantra with respect to siddhis.
I'd suggest that less neo-tantrics believe in or focus on siddhis in
any way whatever, being somewhat more skeptical of mystical powers.
the neo-tantrics do at times include such a focus, however, and there
are probably even neo-tantrics whose OBJECTIVE is their development,
I have no idea (what might be called 'tantric sorcery' and should be
some portion of the discussion of the alt.magick.tantra newsgroup,
though this is controversial, as recent disagreements about amulets
and other magical items within that newsgroup have shown).

>Similarly, the sexual practices of the Tantrics, designed to induce 
>healing, longevity and spirituality, also may result in 
>3enhancements in the sexual life2 that you are inquiring about.

it seems to me more often neo-tantrics do not SEPARATE the
spiritual from the sexual, the assumption being more often in 
the opposite direction: identifying the sexual as comprising
the entirety of or key to the spiritual. this may be quite
controversial to a culture which regards asceticism as more
indicative of spirituality than hedonism (many traditional
religious regard asceticism as the around which spirituality
must swing; this appears to be in part that to which Buddhism
was reacting with its 'Middle Path', for example.

>On the other hand, Neo-Tantra is a combination of a bit of 
>[Traditional] Tantric teachings and attitudes combined with 
>exercises and beliefs that come more from Esalen, pop-psychotherapy 
>and the swinging lifestyle.

this seems to me too much of an over-generalization, though,
not having examined all the various neo-tantric forms I cannot
gainsay you at this time. I can say that my own idiosyncratic
instruction of Satantra probably includes few items derived from 
traditional written or human sources OR from Esalen, pop-psycho-
therapy or a swinging lifestyle. more often they are drawn from
reflection on world mystical disciplines and insights into the
iconography of mystics the world over to which I may expose
myself, as well as based on the insights provided by Kali as I
know Her. She suggests that the personal relationship between
the Guru and dedicant is liable to vary, instructions for
ideology and practice doing likewise within the traditional
restraints of the lineage with which one becomes involved.
some lineages are more or less strict with these and allow the
lineage carriers more or less leeway based on the personality
and development of the aspirant.

as a side-note, the swinging lifestyle is not itself a distinct
generator of beliefs, though as a discipline, restraint from
forming contracts about the future can be a very transformative
one, especially when combined with a dedication to magnifying
compassion and intensity of personal relationships by bringing
focussed attention to all interactions. the maximization of
sex partners may also assist one in breaking one's attachments
to certain aspect of sexuality (and, if pursued to extremes,
can lead to disconnection from compassion and love).
 
>This is not meant as a means of saying one is better than the other, 
>only that they are different.

that is very broad-minded of you. I think that the differences 
in absolute are sometimes over-emphasized, but in the main will
agree with you that the focus tends to be different from what
little I have seen in my nontravelling lifestyle.

>If your interest is in Traditional Tantra, I suggest you look at the 
>book _Tantra_ by Georg Feurstein. If your interest is in Neo-Tantra, try 
>any of the works by Margo Anand.

books are only so helpful in the study, however. I'd say that a book
may provide one with hints, but that personal interactions with those
of traditional or novel instruction would be the most reliable way
to get a feel for the people themselves. combined with some background
research on the reputations of those with whom one comes into contact
by reference to academic and popular periodicals, one can easily find
one's route to one's place. 

a good start might be striking up a conversation with someone in this 
or some other forum in which people who associate with tantra of some 
type congregate and then finding out what they are involved in, what 
kind of tantra they know, and how they went about learning it. this is
the same kind of empirical approach that some tantrics proclaim is a
part of their lineage.

namaste

nagasiva 
-- 
mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html
mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ 
emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired

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From: catherine yronwode 
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Subject: Re: Learning Trad or Neo Tantra (was Question....)
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nagasiva yronwode wrote:
> 
> 50000317 IVom kali
> 
> Re O'Stat :
> >Although there are many types of Tantra, in the West, and 
> >particularly in the U.S., there are two broad categories: Traditional 
> >Tantra and Neo-Tantra (AKA 3California Tantra2)
> 
> are most of the neo-tantrics in or around California? the Muirs do
> their thing in Hawaii, don't they? perhaps they started in CA.
> with this broad categorical distinction I agree.
>
 I have never heard the term "California Tantra." -- teachers of
neo-tantra are located all over America and Europe. There is a
neo-tantra group called Skydancing UK or something similar in the UK...
and there are MANY such groups in Hawaii -- "Oceanic Tantra," the
Kuteras, Lori Grace, etc.

> >Traditional Tantra is a system of spirituality which includes such
> >things as worship of the gods and goddesses, techniques of magick,
> >healing methods and divinatory methods. Traditional Tantra is not 
> >simply a few exercises or methods, it is a way of approaching life. 
> >Unlike many other approaches to life, Traditional Tantra (IMHO) 
> >focuses on what could be termed the 3scientific method.2 That is, 
> >merely because some book or some person says something does not mean 
> >it is true. Rather, they are merely guidelines. Only personal 
> >investigation, experimentation (aka ritual) and successful result can 
> >yield truth.
> 
> most of these things don't really separate all neo-tantra from
> traditional tantra. some neo-tantric paths are inclusive of the
> whole lifestyle, for example, and include the particulars that
> you mention, inclusive of an empirical standard of operation.
 
I agree. It's not exactly an "either-or" situation -- there are
traditional tantrikas who embrace less of the "experimental" method than
some neo-tantrikas. We have seen, for instance, in this newsgroup, a a
lot fo posts from traditional tantrikas who dogmatically follow their
guru (P. R. Sarkar) without the kind of "investigation" one would
normally attribute to tantric practice. 

> >One of these investigations includes that of sexuality and the 
> >varioius things which go along with it, including medicine, healing, 
> >energy work, better relationships and more.
> 
> it seems a great deal of neo-tantra focusses on sexuality as a means 
> or end, so this is a probably characteristic difference as a 
> generality.

I would say that most neo-tantra STARTS with sexuality and may proceed
to sirituality more or less completely. 

> >Tantric practices may produce 3sidhis,2 magic powers, in some
> >practitioners. This are considered to be a hindrance to spiritual
> >development. IMHO, however, if you do not get caught up in them and
> >leave the spritual path, they can be quite remarkable. In other 
> >words, they can be developed and used, although that is not the 
> >intent of Traditional Tantra.
> 
> this is the traditional description of tantra with respect to siddhis.

Well, it is ONE such traditional take. The Siddha Yoga group of
Muktananda was traditionally tantric and in the 1960s, when i briefly
joined, actively accepted siddhis as "proofs" of spiritual attainment. I
am not sure if this is still the case since Muktananda's passing and the
group's acceptance of his daughter Guru Mayi's teachings. 

> I'd suggest that less neo-tantrics believe in or focus on siddhis in
> any way whatever, being somewhat more skeptical of mystical powers.
> the neo-tantrics do at times include such a focus, however, and there
> are probably even neo-tantrics whose OBJECTIVE is their development,
> I have no idea (what might be called 'tantric sorcery' and should be
> some portion of the discussion of the alt.magick.tantra newsgroup,
> though this is controversial, as recent disagreements about amulets
> and other magical items within that newsgroup have shown).
> 
> >Similarly, the sexual practices of the Tantrics, designed to induce
> >healing, longevity and spirituality, also may result in
> >3enhancements in the sexual life2 that you are inquiring about.
> 
> it seems to me more often neo-tantrics do not SEPARATE the
> spiritual from the sexual, the assumption being more often in
> the opposite direction: identifying the sexual as comprising
> the entirety of or key to the spiritual. this may be quite
> controversial to a culture which regards asceticism as more
> indicative of spirituality than hedonism (many traditional
> religious regard asceticism as the around which spirituality
> must swing; this appears to be in part that to which Buddhism
> was reacting with its 'Middle Path', for example.

 Yes, again, i think that the neo=tantrics BEGIN with sexuality and
proceed from there -- to health, longevity, spirituality, or whatever
goals are sought. 

> >On the other hand, Neo-Tantra is a combination of a bit of
> >[Traditional] Tantric teachings and attitudes combined with
> >exercises and beliefs that come more from Esalen, pop-psychotherapy
> >and the swinging lifestyle.
> 
> this seems to me too much of an over-generalization, though,
> not having examined all the various neo-tantric forms I cannot
> gainsay you at this time. 

 I sure can! As i wrote in another post, this is both dismissive and
inaccurate in that it overlooks the other roots of neo-tantras --
hermetic sex magic, 19th and early 20th century  American sex-mysticism
(e.g. karezza, magentation, bosom love, eulis, anseiratic mysteries, et
al) which definitely were part of the hippie-mix that incorporated
tantra yoga in its eclectic endeavours. To give but one exampole -- i
was the co-author of an article on karezza and its relationship to
tantra yoga that appeared in the East-West Journal way back in  1976 --
and i swear that i have NEVER been to Esalan or been a practitioner of
pop-psychology or "the swinging lifestyle" (!!!). 

> I can say that my own idiosyncratic
> instruction of Satantra probably includes few items derived from
> traditional written or human sources OR from Esalen, pop-psycho-
> therapy or a swinging lifestyle. more often they are drawn from
> reflection on world mystical disciplines and insights into the
> iconography of mystics the world over to which I may expose
> myself, as well as based on the insights provided by Kali as I
> know Her. She suggests that the personal relationship between
> the Guru and dedicant is liable to vary, instructions for
> ideology and practice doing likewise within the traditional
> restraints of the lineage with which one becomes involved.
> some lineages are more or less strict with these and allow the
> lineage carriers more or less leeway based on the personality
> and development of the aspirant.
> 
> as a side-note, the swinging lifestyle is not itself a distinct
> generator of beliefs, though as a discipline, restraint from
> forming contracts about the future can be a very transformative
> one, especially when combined with a dedication to magnifying
> compassion and intensity of personal relationships by bringing
> focussed attention to all interactions. the maximization of
> sex partners may also assist one in breaking one's attachments
> to certain aspect of sexuality (and, if pursued to extremes,
> can lead to disconnection from compassion and love).
 
Frankly, i think that "the swinging lifestyle" is a great impediment to
emotional intimacy, and leads to lengthy soap-operas, but that's not
relevant to this discussion. 
 
> >This is not meant as a means of saying one is better than the other,
> >only that they are different.
> 
> that is very broad-minded of you. I think that the differences
> in absolute are sometimes over-emphasized, but in the main will
> agree with you that the focus tends to be different from what
> little I have seen in my nontravelling lifestyle.
> 
> >If your interest is in Traditional Tantra, I suggest you look at the
> >book _Tantra_ by Georg Feurstein. If your interest is in Neo-Tantra, 
> >try any of the works by Margo Anand.
> 
> books are only so helpful in the study, however. I'd say that a book
> may provide one with hints, but that personal interactions with those
> of traditional or novel instruction would be the most reliable way
> to get a feel for the people themselves. combined with some background
> research on the reputations of those with whom one comes into contact
> by reference to academic and popular periodicals, one can easily find
> one's route to one's place.
> 
> a good start might be striking up a conversation with someone in this
> or some other forum in which people who associate with tantra of some
> type congregate and then finding out what they are involved in, what
> kind of tantra they know, and how they went about learning it. this is
> the same kind of empirical approach that some tantrics proclaim is a
> part of their lineage.

 Good advice -- but i also think that Andre Von Lisbeth's "Tantra the
Cult of the Feminine" is a good intro to BOTH traditional tantra and
neo-tantra (in the form of karezza, which is discussed therein). 

cat yronwode 

Karezza and Sacred Sex ------ http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html

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