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To: alt.religion.gnostic.orders From: Kater MogginSubject: Re: Gnostics Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 03:19:45 GMT Penndragon : > Did you realise that by definition (of the word itself), Christ is a > demiurge? ;) Demiurge comes from the Greek demios (for the people) + > urgus (worker). That's etymology -- not definition. In ancient Greek, the public workers referred to by the term "demiurge" were artisans. Plato's _Timaeus_ uses the word for the artisan-like god who creates this world. The gnostics -- who probably picked it up from Plato -- used it in the same way, but changed its valuation. Plato's demiurge is the best possible, and makes the best possible world. The gnostics describe the demiurge as evil, arrogant, ignorant, disgusting, etc. (details vary from school to school, myth to myth), and take a similarly critical view of his Creation, viewing it as a prison or exile of the spirit. -- Moggin to e-mail, remove the thorn To: alt.religion.gnostic.orders From: Kater Moggin Subject: Re: Gnostics (was: re Womack...) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 03:13:51 GMT Penndragon : [re the demiurge] > He's actually told he is blind for thinking he is the creator. You're still confused. The demiurge is called blind, frex in _The Reality of the Rulers_, because he says that there aren't any gods beside him -- one of the Creator's better-known assertions in the Old Testament. Their chief is blind; because of his power and his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with his power, "It is I who am God; there is none apart from me." When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" (that is, "blind god)." _The Reality of the Rulers_ 86:27-87:4 Likewise _On the Origin of the World_, where Sophia labels the demiurge "blind god" because he insists that he's the only god, once again connecting him with the Creator in the Old Testament: "He said, "It is I who am God, and there is no other one that exists apart from me." And when he said this, he sinned against all the immortal beings who give answer. And they laid it to his charge. Then when Pistis saw the impiety of the chief ruler, she was filled with anger. She was invisible. She said, "You are mistaken, Samael" (that is, "blind god"). _On the Origin of the World_ 103:10-19. > He aint the creator perse. He proclaims he is the creator after > seeing none but himself above the creation. Then he is told he is blind from > above by one he could not see. Wrong again. The demiurge is told he's blind when he says he's the only god. He obviously _is_ the Creator of this world in gnostic mythology. I'll give several examples. Let's start with Ptolemy's system (described by Irenaeus in Adv. Haer. I), where the demiurge is said to have "made the heavenly and earthly things." AH 1.5.2, Dillon. Layton has "...created things both heavenly and earthly." He's also (this is still in 1.5.2) said to be the "parent and god of things outside the fullness, being the maker of all things, both animate and material" -- exactly what you're ignorantly denying. Same in various other gnostic myths. The demiurge is said to have "fashioned all things" in the Apocryphon of John_ 12:33 (or "put all things in order"). In _On the Origin of the_ World_ the demiurge is once again clearly and undeniably described as the Creator of this world -- i.e., the heavens and the earth: ... the ruler separated the watery substance to one region, and the dry substance he separated to another region. And from the (one) matter he created a dwelling place for himself. He called it heaven. And from the (other) matter the ruler created a footstool. He called it earth. _On the Origin of the World_ 101:3-9. Notice the allusions to the Creator in the OT: separating the waters from the land, making heaven and earth, labeling the earth his footstool. Gen. 1:6-10, Isaiah 66:1 respectively. > How do people miss something so fundamental? I don't know how you missed something so fundamental. You must be very uninformed or very blind not to see that the demiurge makes this world in gnostic mythology. Good thing I'm here to fix your mistake. -- Moggin to e-mail, remove the thorn
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