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To: alt.atheism,alt.religion.christian,talk.atheism,talk.origins,talk.religion.misc
From: palo@netcom.com (Gerry Palo)
Subject: Re: Journey of the Magi
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 16:09:27 GMT

In article <59bj01$cd8_001@library.nwu.edu>,
Bob Michaelson  wrote:
>In article ,
>   bflanagn@sleepy.giant.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>Journey of the Magi

>Clearly I'm ignorant of Christian mythology and of observational astronomy, 
>but does anybody know if this particular myth could be said to be in 
>any way feasible? 

There may well have been an astronomical aparition or a constellation of 
stars and planets, but the meaning of star in its ancient sense extends 
beyond this. From the description given in Matthew the star was a 
supersensible, call it "astral" vision of the incarnating being who was 
born in Bethlehem.   The star was in the east, perhaps indicating a 
particular constellation, but the magi went west.  When they left 
Jerusalem the star appeared over the house and led them there. Clearly 
this would not have been the case with a physical star or planet, which 
although it may have appeared to be over the house from one viewpoint 
would have shifted relatively as they moved. This was clearly a 
spiritual, clairvoyant kind of vision.  Whenever a great spiritual leader 
or initiate was born his star was spoken of.  

It is in keeping with the whole essence of the Nativity of Christ that 
there would be signs in the heavens, and perhaps there was a physical 
star in the sky much like we imagine it to have been in our Christmas 
pictures. But the other side of the star, the spiritual side, was 
perceived by different eyes that in the magi were opened, leading them to 
the child they sought.
-- 

----------------------------------------------------------
Gerry Palo                               Denver, Colorado
palo@netcom.com

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Subject: Christianity/9612.chrstar.gp (2)
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
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>Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion.christian,talk.atheism,talk.origins,talk.religion.misc
>From: palo@netcom.com (Gerry Palo)
>Subject: Re: Journey of the Magi
>Message-ID: 
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In article <59c3dk$ceg_001@library.nwu.edu>,
Bob Michaelson  wrote:
>In article , palo@netcom.com (Gerry Palo) wrote:
>>It is in keeping with the whole essence of the Nativity of Christ that 
>>there would be signs in the heavens, and perhaps there was a physical 
>>star in the sky much like we imagine it to have been in our Christmas 
>>pictures. But the other side of the star, the spiritual side, was 
>>perceived by different eyes that in the magi were opened, leading them to 
>>the child they sought.
>
>OK, one vote for "No, there is no non-mythical sense in which the story of
>the Magi is at all valid".  Thanks.  It is then a bit puzzling that 
>astronomers have wasted time on discussions of what the "star" might have been 
>in this story, but not the only instance of scholars wasting time on nonsense.
>


I wouldn't call it a waste of time.  As I indicated, there may well have 
been an astronomical event or a special constellation or configuration of 
stars and planets that corresponded to the spiritual side of the star.  
The magi would have been familiar with both aspects. Modern science, of 
course, only deals with half the phenomenon, that which is perceptible to 
the physical senses.  The dating, however, is a difficult question, which 
makes it also difficult to reconstruct the configuration of the heavens 
at the time.  For one thing, the Matthew story indicates that the child 
was really a small boy, not a newborn infant. One question is, did the 
star appear (spiritually, physically) first at the time of his birth and 
then remain visible to them at least spiritually for some time later, 
until they came to worship him?  There are many variables to deal with.  
Matthew's aim was to establish something else, and so he selected the 
details to report without regard to modern historical and astronomical 
curiosity.  But this does not mean that it is not a legitimate question, 
what were the actual appearances in the heavens in the physical sense.  
But you can't resolve physically a star that moves as the magi move and 
then stands over the house where the child was. That is the description 
of a spiritual apparition.
-- 

----------------------------------------------------------

Gerry Palo                               Denver, Colorado
palo@netcom.com

From tyagi@bjt.net  Tue Dec 24 03:17:32 1996
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To: tyagi@hollyfeld.org
Subject: Christianity/9612.chrstar.dh
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Status: O
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>Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion.christian,talk.atheism,talk.origins,talk.religion.misc
>Subject: Re: Journey of the Magi
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Unless of course you are reading the Protevangelion (apocrypha),
in which it is acknowledged this is the star prophecy of
Zoroaster.. in which case you have a marriage of Mithras and
Jesus in the same story.  Strangely enough, if you have read
the Koran, this seems to be the story they are far more
familiar with than the one in the accepted Bible.

Also of further interest in the apocrypha is the symbolism
of Jesus being born not in a stable, but in a cave.  Very
interesting bit of symbolism.. earth as mother.


Gerry Palo  wrote in article
...
> In article <59edek$mqk@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>,
> James G. Acker  wrote:
> >Gerry Palo (palo@netcom.com) wrote:
> >
> >: Matthew's aim was to establish something else, and so he selected the 
> >: details to report without regard to modern historical and astronomical

> >: curiosity.  But this does not mean that it is not a legitimate
question, 
> >: what were the actual appearances in the heavens in the physical sense.
 
> >: But you can't resolve physically a star that moves as the magi move
and 
> >: then stands over the house where the child was. That is the
description 
> >: of a spiritual apparition.
> >
> >	While not daring to get into the Star of Bethlehem discussion
> >again, a planet can do this.  Especially during retrograde motion.
> >Just such an explanation is given during the popular planetarium
> >"Star of Bethlehem" shows that can be found in many cities this 
> >time of year, concerning astronomical events occurring around
> >6 BC.
> 
> 
> The problem I have with this is that retrograde movement is an ordinary
> phenomenon that the Chaldeans, particularly the magi, would have been
> familiar with, nothing special.  Beyond this, the part of the narrative
> where it moves as they approaches Bethlehem and stands over the house
does
> not fit. The time scale of the movement does not match that of their
> journey from Jerusalem to Bethlehem just a few miles away, and the
> perspective would have changed as they walked.  I suspect it was more a
> particular constellation of planets and fixed stars that they were
> following, but that the star they actually perceived was different from
> whatever they saw in the heavens. 
> 
> -- 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Gerry Palo                               Denver, Colorado
> palo@netcom.com
>