a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


Guru System vs Buddhist Thougt?

To: alt.zen,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.tibetan.buddhism,alt.meditation,alt.magick.tyagi
From: !
Subject: Re: Guru System vs Buddhist Thougt?
Date: 27 Nov 1995 12:30:30 -0800

|>whether or not that tradition arises within the West or East, includes a
|> certain cosmology, or metaphysic in its teachings is irrelevant as compared
|> to the simple fact of waking up.  there is no self to be awake, and that
|> is the reason that 'being awake' is insuffient as a descriptor  
|>there is wakefulness.  no-self does not admit of an 'it' which either wakes
|> or is awake.  therefore it is beneficial to speak of a process of waking
|> without speaking of what does the waking or how it may be accomplished

|...The existence of self depends upon which meaning of the word "self" you 
|are talking about.  

as far as I am concerned, the existence of self depends on everything
 else in the cosmos to make it up, though I gather you mean something a
 little different than this

the meaning of the phrase 'existence of self' certainly depends on the
 significance of each separate term in that phrase

|There is no fixed, eternal, atomistic self (i.e. soul).  

quite a strong statement.  how can you be so sure?

|There certainly is a conditional, impermanent, composite self.  

so you believe.  I am not convinced of either of these things.
 it seems to me that there are truths to both perspectives, much like
 'there is a rainbow' and 'there is no rainbow', or 'there is a mountain',
 and 'there is no mountain' (then there is)

|This "self" can be awake and realize its composite nature.  

I think there is room to argue that no self exists at all.  what we refer
 to as a 'self' is a fictional entity we mistakenly identify as constant
 in some fashion.  look at a wave in the ocean.  'a wave' is never the
 same water.  it is a concept of our minds and has no stable existence
 as a 'thing'.  it is a pattern which changes its basic and fundamental 
 essence (buddha-nature in the case of us) at every moment  

the *water* (this body) exists.  this I can more easily defend, though it
 is also false in a way.  I am a shooting star, man.  in an eternal realm
 of expression anything which has a termination point is not truly real 

the wave (the 'self') cannot be awake or realize anything.  it is but a 
 phantasm (great flick btw ;)

|There is thought but no thinker, and this thought creates the self -- not 
|the other way around.

thought without a thinker is somewhat meaningless to me.  all I know is the
 ascription of thought within the stage of my mind

|The core of Buddhism is being awake.  

given that most of us will not wake up within our lifetime,

given that the cosmologies associated with Buddhism are relevant/true,

given that Buddhism extends over many cultures throughout the world,

 the PRESENT core of Buddhism is the *awakening process*, the social
 mechanism which, in the Mahayana tradition, intends to secure the 
 liberation of all sentient beings from the Wheel of Samsara (this 
 is the meaning of 'vowing to save all sentient beings')

the only ones for whom the core is being awake are the buddhas and the
 bodhisattvas.  I am presently not of their number of which I am aware
 (though I have received suggestion to study the life story of Padmasambhava
 very carefully for reflections of my own life process), and I cannot verify
 that any of my friends or acqaintances are among their number.  I have heard
 that 'bodhisattva' is a common title but to many only means 'one who has
 taken the bodhisattva vows', thus I balk

|Putting it in terms of simply waking is nilhism -- denying the existence 
|of the conditional self.

nihilism?  I think it is just a matter of different levels of truth and
 accuracy within each.  I am here not denying the water only the wave as 
 such.  not denying the water: this is not nihilism.  challenging the wave:
 this is consistent with most religious philosophies

Christianity identifies a central, nonphysical substratum to the wave and
 to the cosmos as a whole (spirit, an aspect of God) which is separate both
 from the water of which we are made (matter/spirit dualism) and from the
 figmentary wave of the personality we may accrete within this flesh capsule 

Buddhism tends to reject not only the central substratum (atman), but also
 the ephemeral and changing features of consciousness as the essence or
 focus of awakening (these being limited of 'reality'/duration/permanence)

many religious traditions teach self-effacement as a means of humble 
 discipline, the wave, the personality, becoming the obstacle or the object
 of scorn.  I like to think of sunyata when I come upon such teachings,
 for the wave is also the buddha-nature, even if it does not exist except 
 in our minds.  wave and buddha-nature are empty empty empty, gone gone gone

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races