a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


Dukkha, Nirvana, Kwan Yin

To: soc.religion.eastern
From: tyagi nagasiva (
Subj: Dukkha, Nirvana, Kwan Yin (
Date: 49930619  

Quoting: |Bill Kish
         |> |Bill Kish

|> |[Bill:]
|> |Typically we go through difficult times so that we can unlearn some
|> |old behavior patterns and perhaps learn some new ones which will allow
|> |us to choose *not* to suffer in such an extreme manner again.
|> [Me:]
|> What you are describing here is an ATTACHMENT to painlessness.  You
|> are talking about 'choosing not to suffer' as if to do this is the
|> path of liberation.
|> This is where I find the translation of 'suffering' for 'dukkha' to
|> be quite satisfactory.  We are not powerful enough to 'choose not to
|> suffer'.  This is the Great Cry of Freedom from the Ego.  No such
|> thing, sorry.  The world is suffering and we are the sadomasochistic
|> voyagers.
|You would seem to have forgotten about the third of the four
|noble truths, namely the cessation of suffering.

Nope, I didn't.  I think we can choose not to ATTACH, and this leads
to the dissolution of the world as we have known it until that moment.

The third noble truth talks about nirvana, the cessation of suffering.
I think that the cessation of suffering can only come about when we
have released our self-concepts and begun living in the present.  To
me this means that we shall no longer exist, though people will see
our shadows, our traces.  Once we begin UNclinging, we disappear, for
we were always just a figment anyway.

|> No doubt I have been spared much pain in my life, though I don't really
|> understand how to compare it with anyone else's pain.  It isn't really
|> like comparing two ounces of flour with sixteen.
|You can train yourself to be empathetic.  You can feel the
|suffering of others, and even feel well nigh *only* the suffering of
|others.  Its called compassion, suffering together.  

My impression is that we are born naturally empathic, compassionate,
and are trained OUT of it.  I can reclaim this (I think I have done this
and am doing this to some extent).  No doubt I can feel that others
suffer, though I still don't know how to make 'analytical comparisons'
between my own suffering and that of others.

I don't have the experience of 'suffering units' by which I can determine
whose suffering is greater, whose is more endemic, etc.  All I can know
is that I suffer, others suffer and that I can sense this suffering.
Often when I feel the suffering of others, empathically, it feels like
their suffering is greater and more unnecessary than any I've ever
felt on my own.

|In Tibetan
|Buddhism, there are many techniques for generating bodhicitta, which
|in its relative form is what is often thought of as doing good to
|others, lovingkindness, and the like.  In its ultimate form, bodhicitta
|is "that which is empty".  This is why Tibetan Buddhism (and other
|forms of Buddhism) place such a great emphasis on cultivating
|bodhicitta, because working for the benefit of others cuts through
|coarser gradations of mind which obscure "that which is empty".  

I would agree and also mention that working for the benefit of oneself
is the basis of using such techniques.  Egotism is the basis of altruism
as far as I know, and I'd imagine (though it might be blasphemous to
suggest such a thing :>) that working for the benefit of oneself does

|tightly coupled relationship between relative and ultimate bodhicitta
|is one of the many meanings in the mantra OM MANI PADME HUM.  This is
|the mantra of Chenrezik (Avalokitesvara), who is the bodhisattva of

Thank you for this exposition.  I find it quite valuable.  I'd note
that Kwan Yin apparently derives from Avalokitsvara.  Kwan Yin is
the Chinese Buddhist goddess (? bodhisattva?) of compassion.  Blofeld
wrote an excellent book about Kwan Yin and Her devotees.  I think She's
swell. :>


The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races