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NLudd: Buddhism and Sexual Attachment

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.zen,alt.religion.sexuality,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,alt.magick.tantra,
From: (nagasiva)
Subject: NLudd: Buddhism and Sexual Attachment
Date: 27 Mar 1996 08:53:29 -0800

[from talk.religion.buddhism: (Ned Ludd)]

In <> Bob Jacobson
Bob averred:
>> Never is a long time to be trapped in samsara just because you
>> don't want to abandon attachment to physical pleasure.  If you'd
>> rather have an orgasm than nirvana, then more power to you.
Ned asked:
> OK, hot shot, if you could be a non-sexual being, would you?
> Absolutely.  I plan to be a monk one day and realize that strong
> sexual feelings (and other physical pleasures like sweets, etc.)
> need to be abandoned in order to cultivate such qualities like
> virtue and the mind that aspires to awakening.
   What makes you think you won't need sexuality in whatever you
   do after enlightenment?  It sounds like you are saying it is
   always unnecessary.  That sounds like an absolute.

> I never said there is anything WRONG with being sexual, but it is
> a terrible trap that leads to all sorts of attachment, clinging
> and desire; those qualities of samsara are to be abandoned if one
> wishes nirvana and enlightenment.
   So sex and nirvana are mutually exclusive???  Are you suggesting
   that NOBODY who ever continued having sex attained enlightenment?
   If this were true, I think Buddha would have said that EXPLICITLY
   somewhere in the noble truths or 8-fold way.  He did not, and you
   are wrong in this assertion.

> Remember the Middle Path, Ned?  If I'm all hung up on sex and
> having sex and seeking sex and thinking about sex, then there can
> sometimes not be much time left over for meditation!!!
   You are as far the middle way in these assertions of yours as
   a person can possibly be.  What Buddha ABANDONED was extremism 
   like yours.

> Developing attachment to samsara (like sex and food and drugs and
> posessions) binds us to samsara and results in continued suffering.
> The mind that aspires to enlightenment sees the pitfalls and traps
> that samsaric pleasure brings: claiming to never abandon being a
> sexual being severely limits the ability to attain nirvana and
> ultimately enlightenment.
   Well, how about looking at it from the viewpoint of compassion
   toward your own body?  Mortification of the flesh, and denial
   of all appetites was attempted by Buddha and almost killed him.
   He gave up this path, and then told others to give it up too.

> From the little that I understand, I would choose the latter and
> if that means being a "non-sexual being" then that seems a small
> price to pay for ultimate happiness.  Besides, when has one orgasm
> ever been enough?  Usually within a few days (or hours or minutes!!)
> there's the desire for another one, then another.  It's just a
> matter of seeking happiness in samsaric pleasure and remaining in
> samsara or giving up such temporal pleasures and seeking lasting,
> ultimate happiness.
   Since you don't know what it is, what makes you think that
   enlightenment will be enough? Ie. that you won't have to do
   some repetitive ritualistic behavior in order to experience 
   it on a continuing basis?

   You seem to know so much BETTER than your body knows.  But your
   body has kept you alive all these years despite all your stupid
   tinkering with it.

   Your body needs orgasms.  If you don't believe this, just leave
   it alone for a while.  After a few weeks you'll come whether you
   want to or not, probably in your sleep.

   This has always been a great shame and embarrassment to monks 
   throughout the ages: spotty robes, a sure sign of defilement.
   Ha!  More of a testament to mother nature, IMO, and the stupidity
   of forcing your fine body to do things it doesn't want to do and
   renounce things that it really does need.

   You didn't learn one damn thing from Buddha's life and teaching.


P.S. Karen wrote:
> If you have to escape samsara, you're still attached to it.

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