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To: alt.religion.orisha,alt.magick.tyagi
From: catherine yronwode 
Subject: Re: Human Sacrifice
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:27:08 GMT

OmiJuba wrote:
> 
> John M. Hansen wrote: 
> >
> > "catherine yronwode"  wrote : 
> >
> > > E. C. Ballard wrote:
> > >
> > > > Neither Palo nor Santeria sacrifice humans at any time. That is
> > > > pure rubbish.
> > >
> > > Is it HISTORICALLY rubbish? Apparently Constanzo believed that the
> > > spirits of the dead would work more assiduously in his favour if
> > > he killed them personally, and he seemed to believe -- rightly or
> > > wrongly -- that human sacrfice had historical precedents in Palo.
> > >
> >     The Nigerian Orisha religion, upon which Santeria is based,
> > practiced human sacrifice until the 1860's when it was judicially
> > prohibited by the British Colonial Administration.  Some human
> > sacrifices were conducted after that date, although their number
> > radically decreased after the prohibition, as now those who
> > participated in these sacrifices could be put to death for murder.
> >     There are still rather strict rules concerning human sacrifice,
> > as well as Animal Sacrifice.  The former are taught occasionally to
> > those who study the Orisha religion.
> >     Interestingly enough, the rules for human sacrifice are quite
> > similar to those taught to Initiates of Kali Worship in India, where
> > human sacrifice was also abolished by the British Colonial Authority
> > in the 1860's.
>
> In Yorubaland, human sacrifice was a regular part Orisha worship. The
> orishas gladly took the blood of human sacrificial victims, usually 
> these victims were from opposing tribes that were captured in battle 
> and even members of the same tribe itself were offered to the Orisha 
> in times of draught, disease and disaster. There is an excellent book 
> entitled, "Yoruba Beliefs and Sacrificial Rites" by Omosade Awolalu, 
> the head of the religious study department for the University of 
> Ibadan for the past 18 years. When I mentioned on another list that 
> the Orishas do indeed take human blood as part of the sacrificial 
> offering, with the practice dating back to early Yoruba civilization 
> until the early 1900's and in some parts, still practiced secretly 
> today, I was slammed or it and cursed out, but the facts speak for 
> themselves. This is a practice of our religion, some people may
> not want to admit it and think it is barbaric, but it doesn't change 
> the fact that it is indeed part of our religious culture. Anyone who 
> wants to debate this simply has to look at the religious history of 
> the Yoruba and the answers are there.

Thanks, John and Omijuba, for the historical background on Yoruba
practices. In reading about the Matamoros murders, i certainly began
from the premise that Adolfo Constanzo was a sociopath, a thrill-killer,
a serial killer, or what-have-you, but within a short time, as more
facts came in, it grew obvious to me that he was sincere in his faith,
dreadful though that is to contemplate. 

No accounts of the Matamoros killings mention sexual abuse or the
by-play of sado-masochism so common amonst serial killers, and there was
no apocalyptic belief system such as those that motivated Charles
Manson, Jim Jones, or the Heaven's Gate cults. In fact, The premise
seems to have been strictly to apply to Zarabanda (or, alternatively, to
Ogun, for Constanzo was both a Santero AND a Palero, by his own
description) for protection from the gang's enemies,namely DEA officers
and the Mexican Federales. Human sacrifice was said by Constanzo to be
an efficacious method to gain Zarabanda's and/or Ogun's favour. His
success at maintaining an illegal drug-smuggling operation so impressed
his Mexican and Mexican-American helpers that they, athough curandismos
and Catholics, took part in what they saw as his "Cuban" religion, at
least to the extent that they were initiated ("marked"), watched as he
performed the sacrifices, and made the other offerings (cigars,
foodstuffs, candles, etc.) which he taught them how to prepare. 

It's horrible, it's cruel, and it certainly was a tragedy -- but, as i
have also noted in the past (and been chided for mentioning) such ritual
killings, especially of children, are still taking place in Africa for
religious reasons. This is not to say that a normal, average house of
Santeria or Palo in the Americas of Africa would enagge in such things
-- only to note that there *is* a historical precedent for human
sacrifice in Yoruban religion, as Constanzo believed. 

cat yronwode 

Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html

No personal e-mail, please; just catch me in usenet; i read it daily. 

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From: "John M. Hansen" 
Newsgroups: alt.religion.orisha,alt.magick.tyagi
Subject: Re: Human Sacrifice
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:02:35 -0400
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    Human Sacrifice must follow certain well established rules,
including the fact that only certain people are allowed to perform a
sacrifice at all.  In Santeria, the 'Right of the Knife,' a
religious ritual that gives the Initaited Santero (Priest or
Priestess) the right to sacrifice four legged animals, (as
diferentiated from chickens which everyone is assumed to have the
right to sacrifice) is a very complex ceremony.  In Yorubaland,
people who had applied for this 'Right of the Knife' have
ocassionaly been denied this right in the middle of the ceremony,
despite the fact that a divination by Ifa approving the performance
of the ceremony is required before the ceremony may be performed at
all.
        The person who performs a human sacrifice must have the
'Right of the Knife,' and also be approved by divination through Ifa
for that particular sacrifice.   The rest of the rules are too
complex to type here, and I would probably be revealing some of the
'Secrets of the Santeros' if I did.

    However, it is woth noting that the first five catagories of
'choice,' or 'very acceptable' human sacrifices include those who
voulenter to be sacrificed, from (1) priests who voulenter to be
sacrificed to the Orisha of their head to (5) slaves purchased from
miscelanious contributions who voulenter to be sacrificed.

Regards,
John M Hansen



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From: catherine yronwode 
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Subject: Re: Human Sacrifice
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OmiJuba wrote:
> 
> Yes Cat, I think Ogun would be a perfect example unto whom a human 
> sacrifice would be made. Another Orisha would be Babalu-Aye. 

> No, I do not believe that ALL the Orisha would be on the relieving 
> end. Orishas  like Ochun, Obatala and Yemaya no, but Olokun yes. 
> Orishas like Ogun, Chango, Oya, Ochosi and Eleggua, I can definitely 
> see  them relishing in human sacrifice, because it is in their nature.
> 
> This is my personal beliefs, I am not trying to "convert" anyone or 
> change your traditions so please, do not send me any hate mail, I had 
> enough over the last few days...LoL

Thanks. You have confirmed what i was thinking, that Coinstanzo was not
operating out of ignorance but by traditional paradigms. 

In this context, it is interesting to note that although Constanzo
himself was dedicated to Ogun / Zarabanda, he gave Sara Aldrete, the
soft-hearted Mexican-American college student who was a vegetarian and
did not want to even sacrifice roosters, a set of Santeria Cristiana
statues for her own use that related to other Orishas entirely, and
helped her set up an altar to these Orishas. 

In her interview, Aldrete said that he had brought her statues of Santa
Barbara (Chango), The Virgin of Charity / Caridad del Cobre (Oshun), The
Holy Child / Nino Atocha (Ellegua), and Saint Francis. I don't know of
any association between Saint Francis and an Orisha, but Aldrete
belonged to the Animal Welfare League and so Constanzo probably selected
Francis for her because of the saint's connection with the love of
animals. (If there is an Orisha connected to Saint Francis, please let
me know, okay?)

cat yronwode 

Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html

No personal e-mail, please; just catch me in usenet; i read it daily. 

Lucky Mojo Curio Co. http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html
   Send e-mail with your street address to catalogue@luckymojo.com
and receive our free 32 page catalogue of hoodoo supplies and amulets

This post copyright (c) 2000 catherine yronwode. All rights reserved.

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From: eballard@sas.upenn.edu (E. C. Ballard)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.orisha,alt.magick.tyagi
Subject: Re: Human Sacrifice
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 11:55:50 -0500
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A reminder: As I said Neither Ocha nor Palo have any history of practicing
Human sacrifice. Ocha and Palo are NOT, whatever their historic roots may
lie, the same as the religions that were practiced in Nigeria and the
Kongo but are now quite different even in Africa from what they were in
the 19th century.

And lastly, Palo is not Yoruban. The evidence in Yoruban traditions may
not be used as precendent for the person who was, inspite of claims to the
contrary a psychopath. Pyschopaths do not only perform murders for the
sake of sexual drives. Check the criminal histories. There are plenty of
examples of religious psychopaths. It still is no reflection on a serious
faith held by a large number of normal people.

The preoccupation with the grissly in this thread is frankly rather
prurient, in my "stuffy" opinion.

As a final remark, in response to some of Omijuba's remarks about the
orichas, Yemalla is known to sometimes call her own children into the sea
where they drown. Now, no human agency is involved apart from the person
going into the sea, so one can't call them sacrifice; self-sacrifice
perhaps.

Eoghan

-- 
+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o+o
E. C. Ballard

Debajo del Laurel yo tengo mi confianza

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Subject: Re: Human Sacrifice
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Ashe!

regarding human sacrifice - there is a myth in Odu verifying this, and
the same myth tells why it stopped.

the myth says:

Orunmila was in the woods one day chasing a run-away animal.  he and
the animal got caught in a ditch, and was crying for help.  a slave
woman came walking by, and saved his life.  she pulled him out of the
ditch, and asked how he could repay her.  she said that she was without
children, so he slept with her.  later she had a girl - but this was
obviously not known to Orunmila.

many years later Orunmila called for his people to bring a girl so he
could sacrifice her.  they brought a girl, and his three wives put her
in a room to clean up and wait.  while she was in the room with his
wives, she said "if only i had a father, this would not be happening to
me..." and went on to tell how she came to life.

Orunmila's wives left the room in frustration and told him that they
couldn't deal with the craziness the girl was saying.  they told
Orunmila to go to the room and listen for himself.  he went in, and
realized that this girl was his daughter.  he went out and told his
wives about his secret fourth marriage as repayment to the slave woman
for saving his life.  he couldn't believe he almost killed his child,
and from that day forward made human sacrifice stop.

this story also tells why female goats are Orunmila's favorite ebo.





In article <39961737.1A75@luckymojo.com>,
  catherine yronwode  wrote:
> OmiJuba wrote:
> >
> > Yes Cat, I think Ogun would be a perfect example unto whom a human
> > sacrifice would be made. Another Orisha would be Babalu-Aye.
>
> > No, I do not believe that ALL the Orisha would be on the relieving
> > end. Orishas  like Ochun, Obatala and Yemaya no, but Olokun yes.
> > Orishas like Ogun, Chango, Oya, Ochosi and Eleggua, I can
definitely
> > see  them relishing in human sacrifice, because it is in their
nature.
> >
> > This is my personal beliefs, I am not trying to "convert" anyone or
> > change your traditions so please, do not send me any hate mail, I
had
> > enough over the last few days...LoL
>
> Thanks. You have confirmed what i was thinking, that Coinstanzo was
not
> operating out of ignorance but by traditional paradigms.
>
> In this context, it is interesting to note that although Constanzo
> himself was dedicated to Ogun / Zarabanda, he gave Sara Aldrete, the
> soft-hearted Mexican-American college student who was a vegetarian and
> did not want to even sacrifice roosters, a set of Santeria Cristiana
> statues for her own use that related to other Orishas entirely, and
> helped her set up an altar to these Orishas.
>
> In her interview, Aldrete said that he had brought her statues of
Santa
> Barbara (Chango), The Virgin of Charity / Caridad del Cobre (Oshun),
The
> Holy Child / Nino Atocha (Ellegua), and Saint Francis. I don't know of
> any association between Saint Francis and an Orisha, but Aldrete
> belonged to the Animal Welfare League and so Constanzo probably
selected
> Francis for her because of the saint's connection with the love of
> animals. (If there is an Orisha connected to Saint Francis, please let
> me know, okay?)
>
> cat yronwode
>
> Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
>
> No personal e-mail, please; just catch me in usenet; i read it daily.
>
> Lucky Mojo Curio Co. http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html
>    Send e-mail with your street address to catalogue@luckymojo.com
> and receive our free 32 page catalogue of hoodoo supplies and amulets
>
> This post copyright (c) 2000 catherine yronwode. All rights reserved.
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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C.L. Gonzalez :
> 
> Wish I could add something to the academic aspect of this  
> discussion, but take a look at this report.
> http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World/reuters20000825_1541.html

   WIRE:08/25/2000 13:34:00 ET
   Brazil voodoo priests arrested for child sacrifice
                     
   BRASILIA, Aug 25 (Reuters) - Brazilian police said on Friday 
   they arrested two self-proclaimed voodoo priests for the 
   murder of a 6-year-old boy who bled to death in a black-magic 
   ceremony. In statements to police, Joaquim Alves, 71, and his 
   girlfriend Priscila Souza Ferreira, 22, blamed each other for 
   the murder of Carlos Andres de Jesus Barros, who disappeared 
   last Thursday in the impoverished Brazilian state of Bahia.

   Police said the pair was suspected in other child killings. 
   The boy was found dead at the bottom of a well with his 
   clothes removed, his hands and feet bound and two puncture
   wounds in his stomach, authorities said. The couple led
   police to the body after their shantytown neighbours
   tipped off authorities. "One neighbour called, saying the boy
   kept crying and screaming, that he was suffering," said lead
   investigator Juliana de Oliveira Soares. "Inside the house, 
   we found a series of religious icons, all of them of spirits  
   that do harm. Then we found the body." 

   Enraged after learning of the murder, townspeople on Friday 
   destroyed Alves" makeshift home in the tropical city of 
   Vitoria da Conquista. 

   Bahia is the centre of the country"s rich Afro Brazilian 
   religious culture, where followers often are "possessed" 
   by spirits during religious ceremonies. Animal sacrifice 
   is practiced on special occasions, but human sacrifice 
   is not allowed. 

   Soares said the two voodoo priests killed the boy after 
   Alves' 10-year-old son led him to the house. Alves told 
   police that his girlfriend has tried to kill other children 
   as well. "We are investigating the possibility they have 
   killed other children. This, unfortunately, is a possibility, 
   but I am not able to say more at this time," Soares said. 

   Some leaders of the Afro Brazilian religious culture tried 
   to distance themselves from the slaying. "These people, 
   these are witch-doctors. They have nothing to do with any 
   houses of worship here," said Antonio Bispo, an official at 
   the Bahian Federation of Afro Cults. 

   Last year, Brazilian police arrested a witch doctor on
   charges of murder and grave robbing after finding 16 skulls
   and other bones buried beneath his home. The remains of a
   small child also were found, as was a photo of an infant with
   the words "Para Morrer," or "To Die," written on the
   backside. 

eballard@sas.upenn.edu  (E. C. Ballard):
> 
> I do not think it is appropriate to classify these
> people as practitioners of any regular system of Sorcery 
> any more than of candomble.

Grisso :
>
> It is not clear who are "these people" to whom you refer. 
> In the present case, there is not sufficient information 
> to hazard any particular sorcery classification. It is 
> however safe to conclude that they were sorcerers, of
> whatever particularity. I know at least one Haitian 
> houngan who would be offended by the use of the term 
> "voodoo" to describe these people and what they did. 
> "Bokor" might be more correct, although given the 
> Brazilian context, that may be doubtful.
> 
> As to the other case ...who knows what all the evidence was.
> But ...the mere presence of bones does not suffice to reach 
> a conclusion that murder was committed.

eballard@sas.upenn.edu  (E. C. Ballard):
> 
> Occassionally there are people who go over the deep end. They
> sound more influenced by modern media and neo-Satanic type 
> rituals than anything African in origin.

Grisso :
>
> If you are referring to the present case, there is nothing 
> to suggest "neo-Satanic" influence. On the contrary, it 
> would appear that some of the neighbors knew enough to 
> recognize, from items found in the house, particular
> "evil spirits" with which the two were working. No mention 
> of "neo-Satanic" ritual. 
> 
> African "religion" properly construed may be blameless, 
> but a system of sorcery of African origin clearly is implicated. 
> As always, iwa pele requires --especially if we would defend 
> traditional African religion-- that we rest on Truth, and let 
> the chips fall where they may.

I just wanted to put in my two cents on support of Grisso's statement
that there is not one single indication that this murder was
"neo-Satanic." I feel that indiscriminately labelling all sociopathic
and/or sorcerous killings "neo-Satanism" is a grave mistake and just as
offensive in its own way as the Reuters reporter calling the murderers
"Voodoo Priests" with no evidence that they practiced Vodoun. 

There are indeed sociopathic Satanists who have committed murders for
sorcerous and/or theological reasons -- just as there have been
sociopathic Christians, Paleros, and people of other religions who have
done so -- but the killers in this case were neither self-admitted
Satanists nor did investigators identify the "series of religious icons,
all of them of spirits that do harm" as Satanic -- and they were not
likely Vooodoo priests, either, as they lived in Brazil, not Haiti. 

As Grisso says, some sort of African-derived system of sorcery is
indicated here, but its sppecific point of origin is not discernible in
this sketchy and under-informed report. 

cat yronwode 

Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html

No personal e-mail, please; just catch me in usenet; i read it daily.