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To: alt.religion.orisha,alt.lucky.w
From: Kevin Filan
Subject: Re: Authentic  Initiation Ceremonies
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:30:49 GMT

In article , Eoghan Ballard
says...
>
>No, Racine, I did not specify "good, clean life" according to Christian
>values but according to broader spiritual values. All African and African
>derived religions place a great value on community. Therefore, the role a
>person plays within their community and the respect or lack thereof given
>them by the community is in traditional African terms a good indicator of
>whether someone is a reputable or worthy teacher. 

I'll hazard a guess that your average Haitian or Cuban seeking initiation in an
ATR knows their initiators personally.  In most cases they're related by blood,
or have known each other for most or all of their lives.  A foreigner coming to
Haiti or Cuba (or Brazil or Nigeria, for that matter) doesn't have that
familiarity... and neither are these priests familiar with their potential
initiates.  It makes for a potentially volatile situation all around.  There are
few things which will f**k you up more quickly or more seriously than taking an
initiation in any tradition, PARTICULARLY the African Diaspora traditions,
without being ready.

>Further, I did not say that the character of a person was an indication of
>whether they were "authentic" or not, simply that it was a better way by
>which someone unable to judge the "authenticity" of a priest or priestess
>(of whatever title or tradition) could decide whether they wanted to
>entrust their spiritual and psychic development to a particular person or
>not.

I think the term "authentic" is a slippery one here.  Racine has made allusions
to a house in Haiti which is comprised exclusively of gay men but which is not
recognized by many of the surrounding houses due to alleged irregularities in
their practices. (IIRC, the primary complaint was that transgendered persons
with penii were allowed to enter the djevo in women's clothing).  Are they
"inauthentic?"  If I learned the passwords and gestures from their Houngan (or
Mambo, as sie prefers) and then gave them in response at a fet in Brooklyn,
would they be accepted? More to the point: would they be capable of getting a
person in touch with the lwa and of passing the ase and lineage? 

I've also gathered that there is some variation between houses in all of these
traditions.  Eoghan's House o'Palo, for example, may do things a bit differently
than Akbar and Jeff's Palo Hut on the other side of the island: both may do
things differently than the Bronx Palo Mayombe Crew.  At what point does a
person diverge so significantly from "the tradition" that they are no longer
practicing "authentic" Vodou, Palo Mayombe, etc.  (And who gets to decide
exactly what constitutes "the tradition.")

Peace
Kevin Filan

I, who enjoy my body with unweary tread, would rather pack with wolves than
enter your pest-houses.  Sensation... Nutrition... Mastication... Procreation!
This is your blind-worm cycle.

- A.O. Spare, from "The Anathema of Zos"

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From: Kevin Filan

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Subject: Re: Authentic  Initiation Ceremonies
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In article <20010502144227.01045.00000561@nso-fq.aol.com>, Racine125 says...

Greetings again to you, Racine, and thank you for your courteous and informative
response to my questions.  

>>Here's another question: how does a Houngan or Mambo 
>>determine whether or not a person should be initiated at all?
>
>My tendency is to give the kanzo, although not the asson, to
>anyone who wants it!  This is how it is in Haiti, with a few 
>qualifications that I will discuss below.  It is generally considered 
>that if a person wants to be kanzo, they want to be kanzo
>because the lwa have inspired in them the desire to be kanzo.

I don't believe that is the case in Lukumi: perhaps some others here more
qualified than I am would be willing to comment? I was of the impression that
not everybody is called to receieve the elekes and the warriors, never mind
getting their head made.  

The reason I asked about divination earlier was that divination (by the cowries
and Ifa) plays a MAJOR role in determining one's course of spiritual development
in Ocha.  I was curious to see if it played a similar role in determining one's
status in Haitian Vodou.  I know that the dillogun and Table of Ifa did not make
it to Haiti; I also wonder if divination is as important in the various Fon or
Kongo-derived religions as it is in the Yoruba-based ones.  Perhaps one of the
scholars on here will be so kind as to comment.  

>It is certainly true that I have initiated a few people who have
>later given me cause to regret.  But that is on them - I held 
>up my end of the bargain, I have always provided correct,
>authentic ceremonies and truthful, unbiased translations 
>and so on.  What an initiate does with that after the initaition
>is up to them.  The danger to the initiate does not lie in
>a correct initiation - the kanzo is good for everyone.  It lies
>in failure to adhere to the rules of the tradition, which results
>in a hot head and bad behavior at best.

Again, speaking from what I know, this is NOT the case in Ocha or Lukumi
practices.  (I cannot say whether or not Paleros believe that everyone would
benefit by being cut into Palo: perhaps Eoghan will tell us more about that).

You've spoken at length about the benefits of making Kanzo: what are some of the
*responsibilities* which accrue upon one who makes Kanzo? And what are some of
the consequences you can expect if you shirk those responsibilities? You say
that "at best" you get a hot head and bad behavior: what can happen at worst? In
my opinion, you should give an initiation at LEAST as much thought as you would
give to a marriage.  (Arguably you should give it more: getting divorced is
easier than getting out of initiatory commitments).  

>This is certainly true in Haiti too - if a Houngan makes fifteen
>hounsis, they can generally expect to lose five or six at least.
>People are looking for all different things -a guru, a demigod,
>whatever - and we are just people like everything else.  It
>is the Vodou which is divine, not the Mambo or the Houngan.

That is a VERY important point for every prospective initiate to consider.
Whatever else it may do, initiation does not guarantee moral superiority.  (The
words "Tonton Macoutes" come to mind immediately).  Coming into ANY tradition
expecting a demigod or guru is a bad, bad idea.  At best you are setting
yourself up for a serious disappointment when you discover your idol puts his
pants on one leg at a time just like everybody else.  At worst you leave
yourself open to all kinds of exploitation by shady characters... and the
African Diaspora faiths have as many con artists and slimeballs as any other
religion.

>hat are some things which, for example, would cause you
>>to turn away a prospective candidate?
>
>Well, let me think.
>
>I have turned away very few - one wanted to know how to do
>malevolent magic, specifically he wanted to know how to 
>kill people!  Another had a problem with respecting authority,
>and this respect is a basic requirement of the Vodou faith.

You have said before that Vodou is about power, not morality: why would you have
a problem with someone wanting to use Vodou to get rid of his enemies?  I'm
being serious, not sarcastic, here.  If what you have said is true, casting
wanga to kill an opponent or enemy is Standard Operating Practice for most
Haitian Houngans and Mambos.  Why wouldn't you give him what he asked for and
let him accept the consequences of his actions?  

As for respecting authority: I've noticed that most people who come from the
Western Esoteric tradition have a lot of difficulty with the concepts of
hierarchy.  Neopaganism is largely about "doing your own thing" and "having a
personal relationship with your deity."   Many Neopagans have a hard time
understanding that they don't have a right to call themselves a "Priest of
Damballah" or "Priestess of Ezili Freda" any more than they have a right to call
themselves Roman Catholic Priests or Jewish Rabbis without proper training by
recognized authorities in those traditions.  

That being said: I think we should also recognize that many Neopagans dislike
this kind of hierarchy for good reason.  This kind of setup is ripe for all
sorts of abuses.  Should you respect the authority of your initiator when he
makes sexual advances toward you, for example? What if your initiatory mother
asks to "borrow" money from you, then doesn't want to repay it?  I think it's
naive to pretend this kind of garbage doesn't happen in the African Diaspora
faiths.  (I'd also add that, in my experience, the very people who are most
likely to "pull rank" and assert their "divine authority" are the ones who are
most likely to abuse that authority). 

>>Is divination also used in Vodou?
>
>Of course, Kevin, you know that.

I know a bit about it, but was hoping you could tell us more about the role of
divination in Haitian Vodou.  As I said before, I would be interested in
comparing and contrasting the role of divination in Yoruba, Fon and Kongo based
religions.  (i.e. Lukumi, Vodou, and Palo Mayombe).

Peace
Kevin Filan

The pride of the peacock is the glory of God.  
The lust of the goat is the bounty of God.  
The wrath of the lion is the wisdom of God.  
The nakedness of woman is the work of God 
                                     - William Blake