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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.orisha,alt.religion.voodoo,alt.magick,alt.lucky.w,alt.magick.folk From: blackman99Subject: Re: Black Cat Bones in Magic and Religion (was roots) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 23:31:28 GMT 50020429 VI om blackman99: >>>> I'd like to know more about this. in case there was any unclarity, I was talking about Black Cat Bones, and particularly the obtaining of said bone by boiling (apparently in all cases domestic) cats until one obtains some magical bone, little else. >>>> I'd thought it mainly a European concept, like German.... so far I haven't heard anything to contradict this initial presumption. Eoghan Ballard : >>> ...while in North America some of the traditions concerning black cats >>> may have become mixed into what are basically Congo traditions, I think >>> precious little of this really is of European origin. you don't say why you think this. >>> (please forget Bast - that was Egyptian and a >>> religion that ceased to be practiced a couple of thousand years ago) the wink (;>) indicated a touch of humour. sorry if I was unclear, but as I'm relatively ignorant regarding all of this, I pull my associations where I can make them and hope for correction. you were talking about Africa and cats. I've only seen domestic cats associated with Africa in Egypt to date (at Bast), but I suppose Siam and other places are origins of domestic breeds and potential sources for folklore about how to go about getting their lucky bone. >>> In West Central Africa... cats, mostly one or another variety of wild cat, >>> like civet, are potent magical beings. do these cats come in multiple colours? are black cats of these varieties somehow prized for magical work? the question isn't why cats, especially wild cats' claws or whatever might be used in magical formulae, but why a black cat (domestic) in particular might be selected for this. you seem to be saying you suspect the origins of its selection is African, but I'm not sure I agree. >>> If anything of the black cat was borrowed from European sources it >>> probably is little more than borrowing the magical symbol of the black >>> cat as a replacement for the small wild cat. that is quite possible: substitution. but what about the boiling? what about the selection of a *particular* bone of magical import? I don't hear you mentioning this in your description of the small wild cat and its import. >>>>> What is more, it is an ingrediant you find quite commonly in other >>>>> Congo derived religious traditions in the New World. >>>> >>>> any in the Old World? do they get it from Germany? >>> >>> The old world in this case is Africa. but that doesn't answer the question. if you wish to speak of the "New World" then I assumed that anything else would be "Old World" and was attempting to identify the origin of boil-a-black-cat-and-get-a-magic-bone in Germany. you don't provide a replacement source, other than for 'get-cat-teeth-and-bones' in Africa. >>>>> It is used by many Paleros in Cuba and one ritual for the >>>>> creation of a Nganga Ndoki is remarkably similar to some of >>>>> the rituals sited for the acquisition of the famous bone in >>>>> North America. The difference being that in the Cuban tradition >>>>> it becomes a part of a religious vessel that remains stationary >>>>> rather than one that you carry with you. >>>> >>>> boiling the animal alive being integral to obtaining the bone? >>> >>> No, the method of killing the animal is different that was one of the more important parts of my focus -- I'm wondering where this boil-the-sacrificed-animal comes from. it doesn't sound like it comes from Africa. >>> and since the ritual is itself more complex, the drama of boiling the >>> creature is unnecessary. Usually they are either buried alive or as is >>> more common, hadn't heard of that one. I'll have to add that to my list of sacrificial methods, thanks. >>> sacrificed in the manner used for other animals in Palo tradition which >>> is swift. most seem to favour a swift slice of the jugular or something similar. >>>> Also, Cuban Ngangas are not so function specific as are mojos. >>> >>> I hadn't heard about any relation aside from bones between >>> them. so Black Cat Bones (real or symbolic) are used for Ngangas >>> in Cuba? >> >> The is one kind of nganga only that requires black cat bones, the nganga >> ndoki of kadiempembe, also known as Lukankaze, Lungambe or Lumusie.... what is the character of the black cat bone in this nganga? is it obtained by boiling a cat alive in order to obtain it? >> No ngangas use fake items. if they do, they are fake ngangas. do they use symbolic (rather than literal to their names) items? say, some substitute bones or dirt or something (just guessing)? >>>> As for making specific works against people, yes they can be >>>> made quite specific. >>>> There are many methods, many of which are not related to working with >>>> ngangas. >> does the form taken of the works typically include getting a >> captured spirit in the Nganga to do something against the other, >> or is some portion (all?) of the target captured by it, or? and later: >> what does 'working ngangas' include? are they energy sources, >> captured spirits, like batteries, or servants, or oracles? Eoghan Ballard still later posted: > The "captured spirit" metaphor makes sensationalistic reading but is > hardly accurate. thanks for the correction. > A minute or two of thought would point out how a captured spirit would > be very limited in its uses. not to someone unfamiliar with the cosmological or metaphysical presuppositions from which one is traditionally approaching this act of magic, leaving the topic open to a great number of possible alternatives. so, what are the obvious limitations? > Apart from that issue, the answer to your question is "yes". That is, a > bit of all of those things. it sounds like it varies considerably across the culture(s) in question and that there may be traditional perspectives that are supported but that no clear agreement exists amongst African diaspora as regards how the nganga/nkisi is seen or understood to work. is that true? > The nganga or nkisi represents a receptivle that imitates the entire > world in microcosm, giving the spirit that agrees to reside there with > all the things it needs to work. The contents are myriad and differ > dramatically from type to type and from lineage to lineage. is a symbolic 'adversary' placed into the 'head' or container which is used to make the nganga/nkisi? if so, then we might say that the contents are a microcosm entire used to manipulate the macrocosm -- the spirit is therefore charged to operate on the symbol or representation of the target. if the spirit leaves the nganga to achieve its affects directly, then this is a different matter. as it stands, it sounds like the major act of the mage is to convince the spirit to act as charged within the microcosm. agreed? blackman99
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