THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.religion.angels,alt.paranet.metaphysics,talk.religion.newage
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Re: Psychic Contact: Gods, Dogs, and Angels
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 05:58:17 GMT

50030730 viii om NULatix!

Saint/angelicusrex :
# I thought nagasiva did not necessarily believe 
# in spirits? I thought she believed spirits 
# were "imaginary."

really? what gave you that impression?
something that I actually said?

# ...Ask for your angels. Ask their names. Test them.

by what means do you recommend? how do you recommend 
that their names be determined or discovered?

# There are no "evil angels."

ok, you don't agree with Fallen Angel cosmologies. 

# ...your angels ...will tell you exactly how to go 
# about making sure you are talking to them.... 

why would they do that unless someone might 
impersonate them?

# I'm not instructing you. I don't need to instruct you.... 

keen.

# ....I don't know that you are "teaching falsehoods? 

you represent yourself as instructing facts and then talk
about me as teaching something contrary to it. neither
have you demonstrated that what you say are facts nor
that what you say about me is well-founded. in fact you
make up things about me or misunderstand me and then
project these fantasies upon me and argue about them.

# I didn't even know you were teaching anything! 
# What is all this?

hand-waving in the face of abject unravelling 
irrationality? it is difficult to discern at a remove,
especially with all the projections floating about.

#> all we have so far is your word on this matter, 
#> combined with your strange conversation behaviours 
#> exemplified here.
#
# What is so strange? 

I've made sufficient mention. should you seriously wish
to comprehend my meaning, look over to what I've been
occasionally objecting previously in these threads and
consider what part you played in that and how it might
reflect on your reliability of report.

# You and many people give "dire warnings" against 
# talking to spirits. 

quote from my text? you're the one spouting the cosmology
and telling us how Ouija boards are prone to problems. you
are the one telling us that your mother gave you warnings.
my mother didn't warn me against talking to things, though
I do consider her a rather strict materialist rationalist.
when I told her that I talked with trees she was surprised
and understandably concerned for my sanity. over time she
began to understand that I was just 'weird'. that category
served me well through the years as I talked with others.

# My mother used to tell me that "talking to oneself 
# isn't crazy, as long as you don't start answering 
# yourself." 

I've heard that one before. is it true? if so, why? what,
precisely, is wrong with thinking aloud (the equivalent
of asking oneself a query and then responding to it)?
what would the most negative assessment be of such an act?

# A lot of people are afraid of "voices." 

'hearing voices' has a popular association with the
psychological problem of schizophrenia. many are
also afraid of spots on their skin, low white blood
cell counts, and other things popularly associated
with problems of a serious nature with which they
may confuse their symptoms/experiences.

just the other day I thought I poked myself with
a toothbrush bristle and that it developed into a
wound. I later discovered that it was *actually*
a canker sore in my mouth that was sensitive to 
the bristles of the toothbrush and felt pain 
while brushing. cause and effect are tricky 
things, and absent a control it may be 
challenging to avoid the problems of 
self-delusion.

# You cautioned everyone. Why? 

were I to have certain experiences in association
with angels, gods, or otherwise trustworthy agents
of communication, I would not react the same way
to their counsel or our interaction. I tried to 
outline those briefly in response to your projections.

previous to that I explained the potential benefits
of coming to a greater sense of identity in regards
with what agent one is speaking (avoiding one-sided
relations, bullying agents, etc.).

# How many people do you know who have gone off the 
# deep end from speaking to angels?

'off the deep end' is vague. I've known a few who
seemed to me extreme in their relation with gods and
spirits (willingly submitting to beings they regarded
as hostile, for example). I know *of* some who have
committed violence against others because they were
under the impression that they were being ordered by
a god or spiritual agent like a demon or angel to be
violent. I was not immediately familiar with them.

more pertinent, I know of few who seemed to suffer 
on account of their conversations with ordinarily 
nonsensible beings. this seems to mostly concern
those who've been raised to believe in dualistic
cosmologies in which 'bad spirits' might launch
an attach upon them to secure their soul. in order
to quell their fears sometimes I provide advice on
what they may do to establish secure channels of
communication with those more likely to be helpful
based on what I've read and done myself.

#> here we begin to see what manner of projection you have achieved
#> from the minimal inquiries I've advanced and thoughts that I've
#> shared. apparently you have some problem accepting the perspective
#> of others without taking them into yourself and undermining
#> your own security in your views. consider this carefully in
#> any reflection on your reliability of report.
#
# Why are my reports unreliable? 

they might be if you couldn't tell the difference between
something interior to you and exterior to you and were
maintaining that the agents with whom you were talking
were external to you. you might get confused easily, mix
up your imaginary projections with their expressions,
and fabricate all manner of 'facts' that were really
just opinions.

# Simply because I said you cautioned people not to 
# listen to spirits? You did. Twice. Why would we 
# listen then to your report? You really don't 
# believe in angels. Or in spirit, from what I
# understand of your taxonomy, you think they are 
# imaginary. 

interesting. and if I think *I* am imaginary?

# What can be the harm from talking to imaginary 
# beings? 

on its own, I see none.

# The harm is that insane people do this. 

people fear it on account of that they may be 
thought to be insane, yes. Buscaglia said some
very beautiful things about doing things for
which one would be thought insane with which 
I tend to agree. it broadens horizons where
pursued with tactfulness.

# I noted that one cannot "prevent" insanity. 
# An insane person is compelled to listen to 
# these voices.... 

I asked how you acquired this information.
why didn't you respond?

# These voices are NOT angels. I told you
# how angels were different. But you keep 
# dragging down my report, my authority on 
# the subject and you keep warning people. Why? 

the variability of your response to me and the
projection of your imagination upon me may be
an indicator that your reflection on your own
process may not be reliable. were I to exhibit
the same symptoms, I would hope the same 
criticism would be levelled against me.

# You have not read my literature on the subject. 
# You have not read any archived material here.
# You don't even know our site. But suddenly I am 
# not to be trusted? 

I can't know that, only respond to what I'm told.
too great a distance intervenes.

# How does it happen that an outsider who does 
# not speak to angels and is defending a man 
# who says people should talk to there dog, 
# suddenly a trustworthy authority here or on 
# the subject at hand?

the premises of your question are flawed.

# I ask everyone to speak to and listen to their 
# angels. Do it yourself. If they tell you that 
# I am full of it. So be it. I have had only ONE 
# person here ever even try. He went from being a 
# full blown enemy to a decent and considerate 
# poster who had an experience he cannot explain, 
# but which he feels were his angels speaking to 
# him. He has taken much heat for this. But one 
# thing he does not do is lie. What happened to 
# him was the same as what happened to me. If you 
# contact your angels, specifically you WILL HEAR 
# FROM THEM. (Even if you do it like he did it, 
# as a joke.) Spirit is there to aid us it always 
# has been. Believe it or don't. But stop telling 
# people to question my authority when you have 
# none yourself.

questioning authority is a valuable enterprise.
critical analysis of a source purporting to be
reliable doubly so.

how does one achieve authority with respect to
angelic communication?

nagasiva