THE |
|
a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects. |
To: alt.magick From: catherine yronwodeSubject: Re: What is Magick? Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:50:41 GMT Old Coyote wrote: > > "Asiya" wrote > > "catherine yronwode" wrote > > > Asiya wrote: > > > > "Alexander Mulligan" wrote > > > > > In alt.magick, Erich wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > and the extracted portions of > > > > > > classical thought spanning near all cultures into a > > > > > > viable working system of supreme initiatory attainment. > > > > > > > > > > "initiatory attainment"? Are we talking about magick or a > > > > > college fraternity? > > > > > > > > Certain systems of magick have initiation cermonies, signifying > > > > that the student/frater/soror is about to begin a new period of > > > > study and experience. Some people confuse these rituals with > > > > actual attainment (enlightenment, mastery, etc). > > > > > > And in some initiatic lodge systems, the rituals of initiation are > > > only performed after the candidate has demonstrated an actual > > > attainment of proficiency. [snipped examples of lodge systems that require a demonstration of attainment of proficiency before passing a candidate to the next grade] > > What do these pedantic demonstrations have to do with actual > > attainment? "Pedantic" is not a good description of the vast panoply of possible demonstrations of proficiency used in lodge systems. See below for an example of a proficiency test that should satisfy you as non-pedantic. . The word "attainment" is vague, so let us look at what people were posting about. Erich / Jason referred to "initiatory attainment." You recast this as "attainment (enlightenment, mastery, etc)" I clearly specified what i meant above when i used the term "attainment of proficiency." I used the term "attainment of proficiency" in order to reply to Alexander / Bruce in terms of Erich's original phrase "initiatory attainment." I was referring specifically to those forms of attainment to be had within an initiatic system. This is also tangentially related to one of your terms -- "attainment (mastery)" because in the course of initiatic matriculation in a lodge that requires proficiency tests, what the candidate is demonstrating is mastery of the subject matter that is taught in that degree. This is quite obvious in lodges whose initiatory scheme is based on ancient trade guilds (e.g. the Freemasons): The officers of such lodges are specifically looking for demonstrations of mastery of skills (speculative and/or operative). Further, one who has attained the highest degree (e.g. the 3rd degree in Freemasonry) is called a "Master." He has literally "attained mastery." I did not speak to your "attainment (enlightenment)" since the word "enlightenment" is too ambiguous of definition to be addressed without further hair-splitting. Since you asked, though, i will simply note, briefly, that the word "enlightenment" in its most colloquial sense (realization, "the dawning of the light," etc.) is the prime objective of Freemasonry -- but that the word "enlightenment" in its Buddhist sense (as a translation of specific Sanskrit religious terms) is not an "attainment" that is conveyed in Western lodge matriculation systems. > What does joining a club have to do with actual attainment? > > Obviously, it affords one the opportunity for instruction. > > For instance, a club of Tibetan monks, or, The Church of LDS. :-) > > Are you suggesting that someone else's magickal or spiritual > > enlightenment can be objectively determined by recitation, gestures, > > and academic research? Asiya, you originally made TWO definitions of "attainment" in reply to the mention by Jason / Erich of "initiatory attainment." You came up with "attainment (mastery)" and "attainment (enlightenment)." People have chosen to relate more to what Erich / Jason wrote. I don't think that anyone here is really relating to "attainment (enlightenment)" -- and certainly not to "enlightenment" per se. > Given my previous assertion, perhaps you can accept that those rituals > are just that, only rituals that allow the people providing instruction > under the auspice of the organisation in question the opportunity > to recognise the fact that thier students (at least the dilligent ones) > have made some progress. Actually, you did not state that, as far as i can tell by following this tread. You wrote: > > > > Certain systems of magick have initiation cermonies, signifying > > > > that the student/frater/soror is about to begin a new period of > > > > study and experience. Some people confuse these rituals with > > > > actual attainment (enlightenment, mastery, etc). In other words, you claimed that initiation ceremonies mark "a new period of study and experience," rather than that initiation comes after a demonstration of "attainment (mastery)" over -- or "attainment of proficiency" in -- previous subjects of study and experience within the lodge system. In lodge systems where tests are given, the candidate cannot be passed to a new degree simply on the basis of having studied the material -- he or she must demonstrate "initiatory attainment" through a proficiency test. I was not disputing what you wrote, by the way. I was simply supplementing your description with some information from my own Experience concerning lodge systems that work in ways you did not take into consideration. > Of course this is all pretty obvious, and so saying makes it seem > likely that you would already know all this stuff, and probably accept > it unquestioningly, in the contexts I mentioned previously; Tibetan > monks etc. Which would imply that your objection was actually to the > occult lodge system, which would be fair enough, except, you too are > an occultist? > > This is really the only interpretation that makes sense. You might also > object to the efficaciosness of spiritual instruction under any > auspice, but that would really be whacked, you *are* an occultist, and > you had to learn that from somewhere, so it should be safe to assume > your belief in the power of instruction to facillitate spiritual > attainment. > > Evidently you, like Groucho Marx, do not want to admit to membership in > any club that would have you. I think that another explanation is that Asiya is not familiar with lodge systems that conduct proficiency tests. For instance, she called such tests "pedantic," which is not not always the case. Let me give an example of "attainment" that is tested in certain lodge systems and that could in NO way be called "pedantic." This example comes from real life, but i cannot state the name of the lodge, for reasons of obligating oaths i have taken. It took place in Morgan City, Louisiana in 1970. I was a friend of one of the principles. In Lodge System X, the candidate is taught certain grips and passwords by which to identify fellow lodge members outside of lodge. In a certain degree in this lodge system, the candidate is taught not only how to recognize fellow members of the national lodge system by certain verbal phrases, but is obligated by an oath to help them if they are in distress. The candidate in question is a shoe salesman. He works in a shoe store, fitting and selling shoes. He is not the manager of the store. A man comes into the store who is wearing very worn clothes. He is limping. He sits down in one of the fitting seats. The salesman has a choice: Recognize the raggedy man as a human being deserving of service or drive him off as a homeless bum. Let's say he chooses to approach the man with courtesy. He walks over and says, "Can i help you?" "-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --?" asks the bum, making a secret hand gesture, and thus stating clearly a request for aid from a fellow lodge member! The salesman is baffled. A dirty, raggedy guy is claiming to be his ledge brother. He has some choices: He can ignore the request for brotherly recognition and aid, or he can demonstrate the grip or password he has been taught as a response or he can honour oath in the breech and ask out loud, "Are you a member of Lodge System X" Let's say the salesman provisionally accepts that this man is his lodge brother and that he demonstrates the grip of the degree to which he has been initiated and offers aid to the stranger. The man then shows the salesman that his shoes are completely broken down and have holes in them. He explains that he was travelling and was robbed, that he has no friends in this town, and that he can't walk any farther on the shoes he is wearing. What does the salesman do now? Again, he has choices: He can decide that the bum somehow learned passwords and phrases to which he is not entitled and that he makes a habit of ripping off shoe stores by appealing to lodge members for aid; or he can use his own money to buy socks and shoes for the down-and-out guy; or he can steal some socks and shoes out of inventory to give to the guy, thereby meeting his lodge obligation at no cost to himself. Well, we all know what we'd like to see in such a situation, if we were members of a lodge system that teaches both loyalty and honesty. So let's say that the salesman pays for and gives shoes to the fellow. What next? Does he stop there? Does he pat himself on the back for having done a "good deed" and send the man on his way -- or does he ask, "Do you need food? Do you have shelter for the night? May i conduct you to my lodge where the brothers will see to it that enough money is collected to buy you a new suit and train fare to your destination"? What the candidate does in such a case will demonstrate WITHOUT ANY PEDANTRY his mastery or proficiency at the lessons taught in the degree he has studied. If he passes a proficiency test of this type, he may be deemed ready to receive initiation into a higher degree. And, as i said -- this is a TRUE STORY. There are lodges in America that arrange such tests of proficiency. In this case, the supposed bum was the master of a nearby lodge who had come to town on business, and was asked to test the proficiency of the new lodge member. The shoe salesman passed -- not only did he buy the bum shoes, he gave him money for lunch, told him to come back when the shoe store closed, took the man home with him, and telephoned his lodge master to see if more aid could be arranged. He was deemed to have attained proficiency in the subject of the degree he was studying -- b.'. l.'. r.'. and t.'. -- and was deemed worthy to be passed to the next degree. Cordially, cat yronwode news:alt.lucky.w -- discussions on folk magic, luck, amulets, charms
The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist: tyaginator@arcane-archive.org. |
Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site. |
The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories, each dealing with a different branch of religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge. Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit: |
|
interdisciplinary:
geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc. |
SEARCH THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):
OTHER ESOTERIC AND OCCULT SITES OF INTEREST
Southern
Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo,
including slave narratives & interviews
|